22-01-2002 12:30									#1
	More Leaders with Patch Get a bigger avatar today!

Well I've played about a dozen games now since installing the 40 turn tech patch... and lemme say there is a definate increase in leader frequency. I played a game as the Germans where I got EIGHT leaders in the course of the game. I never built Heroic Epic until after I had tanks. In another game I was defending my capitol with two elite knights as the Babylonians. I attacked with one, won and got a leader. I used it to rush my Sistene Chapel and attacked again with the other knight. You guessed it, another leader for Sun Tzu's Art of War.

No question in my mind that leader frequency has been increased with this patch.. before I was lucky to get one or two in an entire game. but now I am getting enough leaders to rush 1-2 middle age wonders, and that is AFTER building my forbidden palace.

	22-01-2002 16:02									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I dunno about pre-or post patch, but I have been keeping a log of my elite attacks in my current game in an attempt to quantify leader production.

Because I have battle animations off, I have only been monitoring attacking elite troops, although pre-patch I am sure I got one while defending.

Apart from the 47 elite attacks while I discovered you couldn't get two leaders, my results were:

9 attacks (and 29 successful defends) -> GL
1 attack -> GL
10 attacks -> GL and built Heroic Epic
(47 attacks while I had GL sitting there - doh!)
11 attacks -> GL
6 attacks -> GL
7 attacks -> GL

I am playing the Militaristic Aztecs, and have been purposefully used elite horse units in the better chances of surviving. The list above goes to the start of the Industrial Age - since then I have stopped counting, but it's been a long time since my last one!

It is possible I missed the odd one, but it looks like an average of around 1/7 before the Heroic Epic, and around 1/8 afterwards. I've been done!!!

Anyone else out there able to quantify this GL thing any?

	22-01-2002 21:26									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I tend to play as the Germans, and I've been playing for a couple of months, in that time I only coughed up one freakin' leader, HOWEVER, those damn romans intercepted him with calvary before I could get him into my nearest city.

	22-01-2002 21:52									#4
	Re: More Leaders with Patch Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Blitzer Well I've played about a dozen games now since installing the 40 turn tech patch... and lemme say there is a definate increase in leader frequency.

Could'a fooled me (this game with the Babs, at least). I can't even get the vets to promote to elite! Early game, though, and non-militaristic civ. We'll see how things go, but I just fought two wars with the Germans, primarily vet horse, ZERO promotions. Maybe my generals stink. (Hey! You lookin' at ME?)

	22-01-2002 22:29									#5
	Re: Re: More Leaders with Patch Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard Could'a fooled me (this game with the Babs, at least). I can't even get the vets to promote to elite! Early game, though, and non-militaristic civ. We'll see how things go, but I just fought two wars with the Germans, primarily vet horse, ZERO promotions. Maybe my generals stink. (Hey! You lookin' at ME?)

I hear ya. I'm going to look in the editer and see if I can do somthing about that. I played the game even in cheiften and couldn't cough up a leader (I thought that being an easier skill leverl, that things like this would accure more often, I guess not).

	24-01-2002 23:25									#6
	Re: Re: Re: More Leaders with Patch Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Thrawn05 I hear ya. I'm going to look in the editer and see if I can do somthing about that. I played the game even in cheiften and couldn't cough up a leader (I thought that being an easier skill leverl, that things like this would accure more often, I guess not).

Well, guess what, I was just impatient. In that Babs game I have now generated two GLs (bagging Sistine and Sun Tzu). Mind you, I didn't really *want* Sun Tzu, but grabbed it for long-term culture value and to deny it to the AI. I wasn't ready to build my FP (maybe I *should* have been), and I also wanted to get rid of GL#2 so that I'd have a shot at generating GL#3 in my ongoing war. I'd estimate that my non-militaristic civ is generating about 1 GL per 10 elite attacks, but that's just an offhand estimate.

	24-01-2002 23:37									#7
	It's all a matter of Probability Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

You know,
It all comes down to probability.
The appearance of GL's is obviously random, and given enough examples, there should be a standard bell-curve distribution. Unless, of course, other factors play in - such as a particular civ being militaristic.

I know that military civs have greater chance of producing elite units. More elite units = more attempts at getting a Great Leader, but I am not sure if military civs have any better chance of producing a GL from an Elite than other civs do.

In my few games post-patch, I've noticed no difference.

	25-01-2002 18:02									#8
	wait a sec! Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

there can only be one Great Leader hanging out at any given time?!

ER

	25-01-2002 18:25									#9
	Re: It's all a matter of Probability Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Skeeve I know that military civs have greater chance of producing elite units. More elite units = more attempts at getting a Great Leader, but I am not sure if military civs have any better chance of producing a GL from an Elite than other civs do.

non-militaristic civs got a 1 in 16 chance to produce a leader from elite, militaristic civs got 1 in 12.

	26-01-2002 03:52									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Unless the rules (in addition to the odds) on generating Great Leaders have changed since the patch, or are related to the difficulty level, it is NOT true that you can only have one great leader.

In the very first game I played, on Warlord, right after purchasing the the game, I had three Great Leader's generated within about three turns during my conquest of the pesky Aztecs, despite the fact that I hadn't used any of them.

---Unlucky Conquerer

	26-01-2002 04:08									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by saj14saj Unless the rules (in addition to the odds) on generating Great Leaders have changed since the patch, or are related to the difficulty level, it is NOT true that you can only have one great leader. In the very first game I played, on Warlord, right after purchasing the the game, I had three Great Leader's generated within about three turns during my conquest of the pesky Aztecs, despite the fact that I hadn't used any of them. ---Unlucky Conquerer

Hmm...well, if so, can I give back Sun Tzu?

I'm playing at Monarch, so there might be a difficulty factor here. 'Twould be nice to hear from someone at Firaxis who really knows (post-patch).

	26-01-2002 12:14									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I believe the patch did change it. I had a time or two with more than one GL prepatch, but not since, playing everyday on all levels. Even in games with more than 6 leaders. I now use them as fast as I can to allow another. It is normal for me to be at war the whole game with a few years off. This is because I attack any settlers that come in sight. Just finished Monarch on small world and was at war from first contact until 1450AD. Three turns later back at war until I eliminated all but one civ. Got them to one city and went to peace until 2050 for max score. Ah magnificent again.

	28-01-2002 19:40									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I don't play that much, and I play *very slowly* . . . but I just got my third GL in my game as Babylon. Trotted him home and built the FP (to join Sistine and Sun Tzu). So the Persians have been worth 3 GL to me. Of course I'm a tech cripple from all the warfare, but hey...