24-01-2002 02:38									#31
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quote: Perhaps it's time for President Bush to announce the beginning of "Operation Way Too Long Delayed Justice'".

So let's sue the Americans for what they did to the native americans, or for the apartheid-like against the blacks in the last century.

anyway, members of the royal family are immune to prosecution.

	24-01-2002 03:07									#32
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quote: Was the royal house of Belgium ever properly tried for it's atrocities in Africa? You know they were largely responsible for the wholesale land grab of Africa by the various European nations in the 1880s. It seems that when stories of how the Belgians were torturing Africans in order to persuade them to work on their plantations and mines the other nations of Europe rushed to protect the rest of Africa by scarfing up all of the "free" land. Perhaps it's time for President Bush to announce the beginning of "Operation Way Too Long Delayed Justice'".

1880? All those who did that are dead now, you can't sue death people

It looks me naive to think that the other European nations went to Africa to help the natives, all European powers wanted to simply exploit the local population to become rich the Belgians where no more worse or better then those other European powers who also commited many atrocities. All european powers believed in that time that black people where animals and treaded them according(read history books and you will see that that is shamefull but true).

In fact are there very few colonies where the native population wasn't the victim of atrocities.

	24-01-2002 03:12									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Peres seems to me to be the only man in ME politics with any brains or humanity...

I'm starting to feel the same way about Binyamin Netanyahu.

"Saint" Marcus: So let's sue the Americans for what they did to the native americans, or for the apartheid-like against the blacks in the last century.

It's always amusing to see people resort to the childish "he did it too" defense.

	24-01-2002 03:15									#34
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Europe has commited many antrocities in the past, and it's not something we are proud of. However, just about all of those acts were commited more than half a century ago at least. The belgian law doesn't cover those pre-ww2 cases, only more recent cases world wide.

	24-01-2002 03:18									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus The belgian law doesn't cover those pre-ww2 cases, only more recent cases world wide.

On what legal basis does Belgium have the authority to try people in a national court for crimes that were not committed within its sovereign territory nor against any of its citizens?

	24-01-2002 03:18									#36
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quote: It's always amusing to see people resort to the childish "he did it too" defense.

well, he started it

jk

point is, just about every country on this planet has commited antrocities. The US, Europe, Israel, Japan, etc. Belgium included. But it's silly of course to sue entire countries or families for things happening more than half a century ago. This clearly is not the case in the suits against Israeli leaders, who commited the acts not that long ago.

	24-01-2002 03:19									#37
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Dinodoc, Rogan, let's be fair, several such people exist, you just haven't heard of them. The Palestinians have Sari Nusseibeh and probably a few more guys I haven't heard of, the Israelis have a few sane and humble fellows too, like Rabbis Michael Melchior and Moshe Gafni, or Salah Tarif and Natan Sharansky.

	24-01-2002 03:22									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus point is, just about every country on this planet has commited antrocities. The US, Europe, Israel, Japan, etc. Belgium included. But it's silly of course to sue entire countries or families for things happening more than half a century ago. This clearly is not the case in the suits against Israeli leaders, who commited the acts not that long ago.

Fine, then let's start a trial for those responsible for the shameful Belgian pullout from Rwanda which knowingly left hundreds of thousands to die, and the NATO pullout from Srebenica. Afterwards, we'll discuss the tribunal for the Kosovo war and allied war crimes in Iraq.

Moral: This is a can of worms. If Belgium wants to survive to make fine chocolates another day, they should leave it unopened.

	24-01-2002 03:26									#39
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quote: On what legal basis does Belgium have the authority to try people in a national court for crimes that were not committed within its sovereign territory nor against any of its citizens?

There is no international law that prohibits such laws, so it's allowed. Belgium did not sign and ratify an international treaty that prohibits prosecution of "people in a national court for crimes that were not committed within its sovereign territory nor against any of its citizens".

	24-01-2002 03:28									#40
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quote: Moral: This is a can of worms. If Belgium wants to survive to make fine chocolates another day, they should leave it unopened.

Survive? Oh yeah, I can already see Israel invade Belgium for sueing Sharon. LOL. There is nothing other countries can do about this, and furthermore, the Belgian initiative is getting more and more support from other European nations.

	24-01-2002 03:29									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus There is no international law that prohibits such laws, so it's allowed.

So basically they pulled the justification for this meaningless measure as an effort to make themselves feel better and to partially make up for thier imperialist past out of thier arse. Is that what you're telling me?

Edit: Furthermore, what is thier reason for using this law so selectively? Why has Belgium made no legal efforts in the examples Natan listed?

	24-01-2002 03:35									#42
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quote: So basically they pulled the justification for this meaningless measure as an effort to make themselves feel better and to partially make up for thier imperialist past out of thier arse. Is that what you're telling me?

Yep, pretty much. Belgium regrets it's past, and this is one way of doing something back. another reason is that Belgium is lobbying for an international court to handle cases of genocide and crimes against humanity. since that court is not yet here, and thanks to the US will probably never get here, the belgians feel that they should do it themselves to, at least, prosecute some of the people responsable for acts of genocide in the world. I believe only two people have been convicted yet though, for crimes against humanity in Ruanda. It's a start, and hopefully soon more people will be prosecuted for what they did and the many people that died because of them.

	24-01-2002 03:39									#43
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quote: Furthermore, what is thier reason for using this law so selectively? Why has Belgium made no legal efforts in the examples Natan listed?

Because no person or organisation have requested a trial on them yet. The Belgian governement doesn't pick who will be prosecuted or not. If nobody request a trial for those people mentioned, or if nobody presents an actual case, it will be dismissed easily. That's the reason only two people have been tried yet, and convicted.

So if you want others to be tried, go report them yourself and build a case. The Belgian governement isn't going to do that work all themselves.

	24-01-2002 03:39									#44
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The main question I have is, "Why are they only going after the little fish?" Why have we seen no action against former President Bill Clinton, and every other European leader who took part in the flagrant violation of international law that was the Kosovo War?

	24-01-2002 03:44									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Because no person or organisation have requested a trial on them yet.

Then the law in and of itself is truely meaningless and allows itself to be used as a game for political point scoring if only people with axes to grind have to ask the Belgian government to "put on trial" people who the government considers to have committed murder.

	24-01-2002 03:47									#46
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quote: The main question I have is, "Why are they only going after the little fish?" Why have we seen no action against former President Bill Clinton, and every other European leader who took part in the flagrant violation of international law that was the Kosovo War?

1. Sharon is not a little fish, I reckon.
2. understand that the law doesn't exist for very long. It makes sense going after smaller fish first (like some ruandees nuns), before taking on the big guys.
3. gathering evidence takes a lot of time. the acts sharon will be tried for were commited by him when he was still minister of defence, quite some years ago. so be patient, in 10 years from now clinton and others might be facing trial as well.

	24-01-2002 03:50									#47
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quote: Then the law in and of itself is truely meaningless and allows itself to be used as a game for political point scoring if only people with axes to grind have to ask the Belgian government to "put on trial" people who the government considers to have committed murder.

rephrase: "people who the law consideres to have commited genocide".

	24-01-2002 03:55									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus 1. Sharon is not a little fish, I reckon.

Peres, who this thread is about, is most likely a non-entity in Isreali politics due to his overly trusting nature and qualifies as a little fish right now.

quote: 2. understand that the law doesn't exist for very long. It makes sense going after smaller fish first (like some ruandees nuns), before taking on the big guys.

I think that it would make the most sense to go after the guys who would make the most impact, especially if you have political points to score as you told me the Belgians do.

quote: 3. gathering evidence takes a lot of time.

The intervention in Kosovo was against the dictates of international law on the face of it.

	24-01-2002 03:59									#49
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quote: The intervention in Kosovo was against the dictates of international law on the face of it.

That isn't an offense according to this particular law. Only acts of genocide and crimes against humanity are.

On the other questions, I have no idea. I'm no belgian and I'm certainly not an insider into belgian politics and legal systems.

	24-01-2002 04:03									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus rephrase: "people who the law consideres to have commited genocide".

Your absolutely right. BTW, under this law can anyone demand that someone be charged with genocide or is that privilege only given to Belgian citizens? For example, could one of the Isrealis here bring up charges against Arafat, the commander of Christian Phalanges, basically anyone in the Syrian government, Saddam, everyone involved in the NATO Kosovo interventions, etc. and have it go foward at the same speed as the case against Sharon has.

	24-01-2002 04:11									#51
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quote: BTW, under this law can anyone demand that someone be charged with genocide or is that privilege only given to Belgian citizens?

anyone I believe. I think I read about international organisations who pressed charges against certain people in the paper.

the problem is that there are quite a few criteria that have to be met, so you can't go around accusing someone of genocide based on what you read in The Sun. I don't know what those exact criteria are, but I believe you have to have a certain amount of verifiable evidence before a case is even considered. As of yet, few people have managed this, and the only big name on the list currently is Sharon. No idea why Sadam or others haven't been accused yet, though I won't be surprised if that will happen in the comming years.

	24-01-2002 04:15									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus As of yet, few people have managed this, and the only big name on the list currently is Sharon.

If you have enough evidence to try Sharon, you have way more than enough evidence to try the leader of the Christian Phalanges who was directly responsible for the crimes Sharon is currently being tried for? I also believe that this person is still in power in the Lebonese government as well.

	24-01-2002 04:29									#53
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quote: Your absolutely right. BTW, under this law can anyone demand that someone be charged with genocide or is that privilege only given to Belgian citizens? For example, could one of the Isrealis here bring up charges against Arafat, the commander of Christian Phalanges, basically anyone in the Syrian government, Saddam, everyone involved in the NATO Kosovo interventions, etc. and have it go foward at the same speed as the case against Sharon has.

Sadam could be certainly charged for his actions agianst some opposition groups from who some certainly could fall under either charges agianst humanity or even genocide.

Christian Phalanges: Quite likely that will happen: The advocates of Sharon can defent themself by proving that the Christian Phalanges accted on themself or someone else ordered them if that is proved will they most likely start a sue against them.

I think everyone can do that, if the Israelis have a well prepared charge against sadam can they start a court and will they most likely even win that court I think.

I personaly find that no so good idea of Belgium to do that alone something like that should be done by the E.U. or something not by a small powerless country like Belgium, because many victims see that as an attack by Belgium currently and not by those who started the trial so it's not good for Belgian foreignt policies.

	24-01-2002 14:45									#54
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc On what legal basis does Belgium have the authority to try people in a national court for crimes that were not committed within its sovereign territory nor against any of its citizens?

Universal jurisdiction is acknowledged (and even mandated) for a couple crimes, like genocide, airplane hijacking... the laundry list of that is in our penal code, and I assume you'll find similar provisions in "US" penal law.

The legality of NATO action in Kosovo is another issue and far from clear - and one wonders on what crimes. About the big fish, well, the thing is currently in a limbo. Groups seek to use this against anyone from Pinochet to Kissinger, and IIRC one group in France wanted Clinton arrested upon a visit of his there. Universal jurisdiction crimes should be handed to an international court to end the de facto jurisdiction anarchy.

	24-01-2002 15:19									#55
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When the news arrived here in Portugal, IIRC, the story was that it was Sharon the one Belgium governments claimed to have commited war crimes (much like the Palestinians, repeat on and off).

What were the charges against Perez? Can anyone prove them?

On what the rest is concerned, Isralelli Government wants war, not peace. There is nothing hypocritical in trying to force peace, unless you are waging war somewhere else. That is not the case of Belgium. Trully hypochritical is forcing a war while claiming to want Peace: such are the deeds of the current Israelli Goverment. And the faces of this hypocracy are the peacefull Perez, justifying the actions of warmonger Sharon. Two faces of the same hypocritical coin, IMHO.

"Can't we war anymore?"
- Well, you shouldn't. Especially when what is all about is a piece of land, that three religions call Holy, forgeting that all God's Creation is equally holy. When that land is blemished by the blood of brothers and sisters... i begin to wonder is it is still that special, in God's eyes.

	24-01-2002 16:59									#56
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc If you have enough evidence to try Sharon, you have way more than enough evidence to try the leader of the Christian Phalanges who was directly responsible for the crimes Sharon is currently being tried for? I also believe that this person is still in power in the Lebonese government as well.

Alas ... recently he was accidently killed by starting on his car ...

	24-01-2002 19:07									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Universal jurisdiction is acknowledged (and even mandated) for a couple crimes, like genocide, airplane hijacking... the laundry list

Universal jurisdiction is less than useless in these cases without the enforcement capablities to back it up, Roland. I'm sure that you realize that. And until the Belgian government realizes that they are engaging in the collective equivillant of staring at thier navel. The law is also written in such away that allows itself to be used to score political points and could potentially damge Belgium's relationship with the ROW for the reason kolpo laid out in his post.

quote: The legality of NATO action in Kosovo is another issue and far from clear

I argue that the NATO intervention itself was unjustified under the rules of international law. Any alleged war crimes arising from that illegal misadventure are an entirely seperate matter, IMO.

	24-01-2002 19:20									#58
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"Universal jurisdiction is less than useless in these cases without the enforcement capablities to back it up, Roland. I'm sure that you realize that."

Enforcement is territorial. Iow, when Sharon enters Belgium, he may/may not be arrested. What is quite useless is not universal jurisdiction, but starting all kinds of procedures before you have a suspect to put on trial. I assume what we have here is a sort of private prosecution case and it is about admissibility. And not dealing with this properly would be a denial of justice, regardless of the motives behind the legal action.

"The law is also written in such away that allows itself to be used to score political points and could potentially damge Belgium's relationship with the ROW"

Indeed, but that is not a matter for the judicial branch. Also, US tort law is used all the time to score political points, domestic and abroad. Would you advocate a state interest doctrine (not 100 % sure of the term) for belgian penal law ?

	24-01-2002 21:01									#59
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quote: When the news arrived here in Portugal, IIRC, the story was that it was Sharon the one Belgium governments claimed to have commited war crimes (much like the Palestinians, repeat on and off).

The paper I read today contained an article about this as well, and it mentioned Sharon, not Peres. I'll look up a Belgian newspaper to verify this.

	24-01-2002 21:55									#60
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http://indictsharon.net/