23-01-2002 09:58									#1
	Armored Probes and other questions... Get a bigger avatar today!

I was using some Armored Foil Probes and noticed that they count as military units when figuring out drones due to low Police rating. Is that right or was I just seeing things? Kind of a bummer since I'm playing Miriam with Free Market/Democracy.

Also, playing as Miriam I built the HSA and then designed some Speeder Probe Teams with Fusion Reactors. I notice that these units have the red backpack which I thought only signified Probe Teams with Algorithmic Enhancement. Is Miriam getting Roze's special ability? Note that I do still have the option to build Covert Ops Centers. In this game I was playing with only SMAC factions - the left hand box you pick at the start.


As an aside I noticed when playing SMAX with only the original factions (picking the left hand box) that the Manifold Nexus and Unity Wreckage don't do anything.

	23-01-2002 12:55									#2
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The red backpack indicates the fusion reactor, not the algoriothmic enhancements.

	23-01-2002 13:12									#3
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The Nethack Terminus gives all probes with a fusion or better reactor free algorithmic enhancement.

I have never seen a probe of any sort give problems (drones) in FM, so I'm surprised to hear about that.

It sounds like you are choosing to play the original SMAC from the startup screen. Installing SMACX brings up a screen which allows you to choose SMAC or SMACX. Is this what you are talking about?

	23-01-2002 17:16									#4
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Nope, playing SMAX, hence the existance of the Manifold Nexus etc.. Running Terranx.exe. Neither Nexus and Wreckage do anything. I also recently turned off unity pod scattering if that matters.

	23-01-2002 19:56									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yxklyx,
my tests date back to several months ago, although when using the feature I never had contrary evidence to my conclusions...

As I always care to underline:

- common opinion simplifies the adding of armor to a non-combat unit as "making it a combat-unit"

- there are several constraints/restrictions/penalties applied to so-called "non-combat" units in general:
can't conquer cities,
can't pillage terrain,
can't Police (but don't cause Drones when abroad under negative Police SE values),
freeze on Drop-landing turn,
most of them (but not all the kinds) die with the stack,
er... can't attack (of course!),
...,
and last but paramount to the audience perception, do suffer the "-50% non-combat" defense strength penalty when *defending* (indeed) against an attack (whence the definition of "non-combat" itself)

- as far as I could determine, adding armor to a non-combat unit has the ONLY effect on its behavior to negate the "-50% non-combat" penalty when *defending*
- under every other aspect, I had tested that the presence of armor made absolutely no difference on their behavior.

Thank you for reporting your observation, I frankly have no specific recollection on that feature. It could be possible that I had overlooked something, I'll test it at my earliest convenience.

	23-01-2002 20:07									#6
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A probe armored or not, should not increase drones. It is still not a combat unit, its benefits are increase defense (assuming you do not stack it with a lower armored combat unit, see below) and greater resistance to artilery bombarment damage. It will not be selected as defender if there are any combat units in the stack. Your 1-1-1 scout will be chosen as defender over you stasis armored probe. When all combat units defenders are eliminated (again say a 1-1-1) all no cabat units, inculding armored probes will be destroyed. The resistance to artillery is significant. Dedrie was mounted an effective combined artillery + probe attack on me. I invade with probes & garrisons to take a beahead base on her island. She couterattacked, first bobarding with reducing my 2 defending elite probes to 10%, the armored sentinels were barely scratched, then attacked with her middling morale probes, eliminating my probes, then subverted the base back.

	23-01-2002 23:12									#7
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I'll double check then - I could have mistaken a gunship for a probe. BTW, what can you do about foil probes that return to landlocked bases? Can you load them on Air Transports to get them back to port?

	24-01-2002 00:07									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Yxklyx what can you do about foil probes that return to landlocked bases

I have not experience of it, MY foil & Cruiser probes have all been more inteeligent than that.

	24-01-2002 00:17									#9
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quote: Lefty Scaevola: Your 1-1-1 scout will be chosen as defender over you stasis armored probe. When all combat units defenders are eliminated (again say a 1-1-1) all no cabat units, inculding armored probes will be destroyed.

This doesn't sound altogether good. Can I design the armored probe team as a primary defender? Up to now (using Vel's strategy of surrounding the continent with a barrier of crawlers/probeteams, which I armoured when necessary) I was adding a clean AAA unit to probe teams and formers to increase the defense against air strikes. But if the probe team is lost anyway, why armouring it after the advent of clean units?

	24-01-2002 00:38									#10
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I did see a menu option where you can set the Primary Defender of a stack. Is that what you're talking about? Does that work?

	24-01-2002 00:46									#11
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I think you're right in that there's little point in stacking an armored probe with an actual defensive unit at all. Up to the time until clean units arrive, if you can't police your drones, and/or have support concerns, an armored probe makes good sense as a solo base garrison. They make good field ops as long as you don't stack them with anything. I really like the trance synthmetal probe, for working near fungus.

edit: cross-posted. I don't think you can use designate defender with a probe, I could be wrong...

	24-01-2002 01:03									#12
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Do you guys use infantry or speeder chassis for probe police? Personally I never have a big problem with support in SP and rarely use the clean ability.

Also, is designing Rovers before you've discovered Doctrine:Mobility (but after you've discovered Planetary Networks) considered a cheat in MP?

	24-01-2002 01:14									#13
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I generally try to have a basic infantry probe in every base for defense, but more often end up with a mix. The speeder probe is more flexible, definitely. Truthfully, I very rarely armor probes at all, except in an emergency. And yes, reverse-engineering the rover chassis from a probe team is usually considered cheating in MP. But, of course, opinions vary...

	24-01-2002 02:30									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The short answer to can you designate an armored probe team as a defender is NO you can not.

That being said there is reason to create them. In fact I advocate their usage in certain situations. I refer to games where you are Morgan. His extremely poor support is a huge factor inthe early game.

For this reason Morgan is best played in the early game by creating infantry probe teams and then upgrading them to synth and later on to synth/trance. This allows a unit in base to act as a garrison against worm incursions free of support costs. (note it only allows one such effective unit. Any other additonal units in that base make the armored PT redundant except to prevent probe actions from other factions) By doing so you have secured your base and now have the freedom to create formers with out chewing into support.

Forgive me it's been awhile but if memory serves I used to love playing Morgan and going FM as soon as possible and then FM/wealth when Industrial Auto was discovered (mostly for the great energy from base squares not the +1 energy per square). Energy pours in but you find yourself mineral starved due to the -1 support. (only 1 unit supported but still the free 10 mins for every new base formation IIRC). In cases where I was creating a base in a situationally dangerous area (normally I would rush a former and/or a rec tank in other situations) I would rush a infantry PT and then upgrade him the following turn into an armored PT preferably armored/trance PT.

Later on I would continue to crank the PT's out and have them lying around by themselves (no units stacked) or used as coastline blockers to prevent landings.

Og

	24-01-2002 03:52									#15
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I agree it is a beautiful Morgan tactic Ogie, actually a good tactic for any faction if you want 2 formers or a former/scout in the field.

However, in the LAN games I play with friends, we've outlawed it. It just seems ridiculous that an armored probe team could safely defend as well as an infantry, and further be used as the only base defender. If armored non-coms still suffered the -50% (based on their new armor) in combat situations, it might be different. I certainly wish they did, as it would would reduce some of the sillier situations that crop up from time to time.

However, it's only using the armored probe as your sole base defender as a regular tactic we've outlawed. Armoring non-coms (including crawlers/formers) for use in the field is a totally different matter, and if you happen to have one near a newly founded base and want to stick him in there for a few turns while you produce/move up a garrison, no foul.

	24-01-2002 19:24									#16
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Hiya doin Fitz! Long time no cross posting .

Yeah I know some folks (apparently you and your Lan mates included) take issue from a realism POV that armored probe teams should be able to defend as a combat unit. Afterall just because James Bond is wearing a flack jacket why should he be able to stop an armored collumn, right?

Anyhoo, there are so many instances of suspended reality in SMAC(X) that I just considered(sp?) it yet another instance to be ignored. As a result I felt no guilt (i.e never really considered it a cheat).

Good to hear from you again.

Happy Smac'ing.

You know I think I'm gonna dig out my SMAX CD and fire up a Morgan game.

Og


By the by I suppose your definition of a noncom used in a base for a few turns is more than the time frame horizon until discovery of clean reactors . If not I would qualify as playing by your in-house rules.

Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe on 24-01-2002 at 21:34

	30-01-2002 02:35									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

Right, so armored probes do not cause drones when away from your territory.

quote: As an aside I noticed when playing SMAX with only the original factions (picking the left hand box) that the Manifold Nexus and Unity Wreckage don't do anything.

The Unity Wreckage does not do anything when playing with Pods Off. This is unfortunate since the wreck should make the game a little more challenging - odds are an AI faction will find it first.