26-08-2000 18:33									#1
	Cities of size 47 ? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I am quite interested in building the max population in the world, without cheating, of course.
A city has 21 squares. If they are all plains, they can produce, 4 (2+1 with irrigation+1 with farmland).
Each citizen eat two foods, so that makes cities of 42 if you are not near the coast and your engineers do well.
Two resources : oasis and wheat can produce more food : 6 (3+1+2).
Normally you can have 4 of these resources within the city Radius, each of them adding a citizen.
So the maximus size of a city appears to me to be 46.

But I've read somewhere on this forum (but where and when ?) that one could manage to get 5 resources within the city radius, because of strange patterns happening near the junction lines of the map (I name junction lines the squares of the x coordinates near 0).
It is true that the pattern of resources repeating themselves every 8 squares, they twist a little bit at the j.l. when you give them numbers that are not multiples of 8. eg 97 rather 96.
I have seen 2 huts or 2 resources next one to another, but I've never witnessed 5 resources within the city radius. The closest I've come is 4 with an unusual pattern.

DOES ANYONE AS EVER SEEN THAT MYTHICAL 5 RESOURCES WITHIN A SINGLE CITY'S REACH ?
If the answer is yes, would it be possible to provide the size of the map and the number of the resource seed (or the map itself), so that I can build cities of 47 ?

	27-08-2000 01:20									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

On the subject of non-cheating maximum population, it would seem that what that would consist of would be 127 cities at 40ish population and 127 cities at 127 population. Sending a food caravan to another city to get it to grow is perfectly legal, so having 1/2 of your cities producing food caravans every round for the other 1/2 of your cities would work. What isn't generally considered legal is taking food caravans and rehoming them so that each city sends itself a food caravan every turn producing 254 size 127 cities. It would require a granary in every growing city (or the pyramids), or you'd get a lot of famine, and certainly more patience than I have

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April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King

SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince

*goes off and starts gifting gold and techs*

	27-08-2000 02:13									#3
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Sorry,

I don't get it.
First you cannot relocate a caravan im my version of civ (multiplayer), of that I am sure.

And I also believe (but it needs to be verified) that if a city sends food to another then the food is removed from it. (a +4 food city sending successfully a food caravan becomes a +3 food city).
Finally, is it possible to establish more than 3 food lines for one city. I doubt it.
SCG did you try all that you've said or were you just speculating. Maybe it depends on the version of civ. Which one do you have ?

Furthermore to underline the very little meaning of all of this, food caravans only affect (if I am right) the population, not the score, because a citizen is a citizen, no matter the size of the city.

Oh no, not even that, in fact a city of 42 scores less than two cities of 21, because you can only make about 20 citizens very happy (they score 2 points then).

	28-08-2000 09:19									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

You can rehome a caravan by moving it into a city and using the menu available by clicking on it in the city screen - since this command is not available from the main menu some people view this as a cheat.
A city may send many food caravans to another city and only incur one loss of food for that single route - the recipient city however grows whenever its food box is full ie after every other caravan - caravan arrives food box is filled - city grows - food box drops to half (with granary) drops further (with deficit) food caravan arrives fills granary - next fc fills food box - city grows again - so the trick is to move food caravans in pairs - it is also possible (but considered by almost everyone as a cheat) to have a loop of food caravans - city A supplies city B which can therefore grow, city B supplies city C which grows and city C supplies city A - look three growing cities!!! (I think this trick is due to Xin)

Sorry if I have got any of the details wrong - but its a long time since I played a game of this nature...

good civin'

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

	27-08-2000 23:13									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Every citizen counts towards score if you are interested in a high score game.

	29-08-2000 02:22									#6
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Thanks for the informations on the food caravans. I finally get it, at least I believe.
I am in no hurry to try it though, because it seems afwul close to cheating.

May I ask again about that 5 resources pattern ?
As anyone seen this ?
(please look back at the 1st message)

	29-08-2000 02:23									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Thanks for the informations on the food caravans. I finally get it, at least I believe.
I am in no hurry to try it though, because it seems afwul close to cheating.

May I ask again about that 5 resources pattern ?
As anyone seen this ?
(please look back at the 1st message)

	29-08-2000 02:26									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thanks for the informations on the food caravans. I finally get it, at least I believe.
I am in no hurry to try it though, because it seems afwul close to cheating.

May I ask again about that 5 resources pattern ?
As anyone seen this ?
(please look back at the 1st message)

	29-08-2000 02:35									#9
	Remove this text

Thanks for the informations on the food caravans. I finally get it, at least I believe.
I am in no hurry to try it though, because it seems afwul close to cheating.

May I ask again about that 5 resources pattern ?
As anyone seen this ?
(please look back at the 1st message)

	29-08-2000 03:33									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Standard use of food caravans is one of the documented purposes of caravan units - and works a lot faster.

A five special pattern could only occur at the "international dateline" on a civ map where the tile numbers wrap back around to zero. By changing the resource seed (0-63) you should be able to see all iterations, but off hand I don't think the wrap makes it possible. Why do you want big cities??

	29-08-2000 13:32									#11
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

In no sense definitive, but I did once spend a whole day trying to fabricate a five special city (for an OCC scenario) and I failed miserably ...


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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

	30-08-2000 02:53									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Sorry for sending the same message 4 times, but I was not receiving the confirmation that my message was send, so I clicked a few times on the submit button. (Call it impatience)

Well the 5 resoures cities seems impossible to me too. But as I heard of someone mentionning it in this site, I wanted to be sure. I'm going to look for the message. And to try all those resource seeds. C'mon there is just 64 of them !

Why would I want cities of 47. Where is my lawyer ? And I need a psychiatrist, too.
I just find it interesting to be the king of the largest empire without cheating. Getting a few cities at 47 would improve my population score. And there is the curiosity to discover something I haven't seen yet.

I have made some maps in which the AI civs start in situations where they cannot build cities, so I can get the maximum cites (255) with all resources avalaible to make them grow beyond 42. Would it interest anybody ? I shall submit the best ones to the Apolyton site.
If there is a rainy sunday coming, it could be done quite soon.

	03-09-2000 15:31									#13
	Support Apolyton

Forget it !
I haven’t been able to find a 5 resources in on city radius pattern, despite 1 full hour at playing with the seed numbers and the coordinates in my map editor.
It has to be impossible.

	04-09-2000 02:45									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

5 Special Resources For One City - I have seen it.


I have had this happen in one solo game; but it was not with starting with five resource squares.

I accidentally transformed (selected wrong menu option) a grassland (shield) square I think into
a hill with wine. I found this so odd that I
converted grassland with a square into a forest
and had silk. I believe that if I had deforested;
I might have had a buffalo or a wheat.

I am not sure which version of Civ2 this was with.
None of these special resource squares which I created fitted into the standard resource square patterns, nor was it on the map wrap round date line.

	04-09-2000 08:52									#15
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I saw a 5 special site once.It wasn't mine unfortunately.It was on one of those oversized maps.These maps are very weird though.Parts of them seem to dissappear and reappear.Sometimes you can't see your cities.Very strange indeed.I can't recommend them at all.

	05-09-2000 17:43									#16
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

in reguards to those oversized maps, you can always resize the window that holds the map. Especially on those really short and wide maps (ie 250x40), I'll do that. Of course it will overlap the main map, so you have to click on the map you want on top. If nothing else, I recommend resizing just to see how much of the map you actually can see. Resizing back to the default sizes is simple enough - there is an option on one of the menus to do that

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April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King

SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince

*goes off and starts gifting gold and techs*

	05-09-2000 19:12									#17
	Tired of ads?

SCG - I think you misunderstood Smash - it is possible by using a little judicious hex-editing to create a map larger than the 10,000 limit imposed by the map editor in the game itself - I believe that this is the kind of map that Smash is referring to ...


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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"

	06-09-2000 01:24									#18
	Suffering from ads?

Smash, for you I see what has happened.
To modify a map you need to hex edit the 1st number of the *.map file
As you certainly know the x range is twice as long as the number given. E.g. a 100x100 is in fact a 200x100. It the *.map file it is written as 200. So your x number should always be even. If you give an odd number, the map is not stable around the edge : you see the resources "moving" but you never have more than 4 at the same time. To repair your oversized map all you need is to add 1 to the 1st number of the *.map file.

On the other hand, EdwartTKing I am quite amazed by what you're saying.
I shall try to become ecological for a while and reforest the plains, just to see if I get lucky.
Don't you remember the version of Civ you were playing ?
Would you not by any miracle have the saved game file somewhere ?

This 5 resource city radius is like the Loch Ness Monster or the Yeti.
Very few have seen it, and nobody has any proof.

Thanks for the revelations, I shall keep on searching

	07-09-2000 00:28									#20
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Sten, of which version of Civ2 are you talking about.
I believe that in the rules.txt of any version, there is always a result to any transformation. For example grassland should become hill. I don't see no "nil" anywhere.
I spent some time transforming grassland into forest and the resources always appeared according to the traditional pattern. In which circomstances could it be different ?

Furthernore you say that : "evidently the 5 special pattern would only naturally occur under certain resource seeds if the map width is also not divisible by 8".
I agree that it should not be divisible by 8, but what do you mean by "would". Have you actually seen that 5 pattern, or are you just guessing ?

Thank you for explaining.

	07-09-2000 02:08									#21
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Not sure what versions might have nil or actually "No" in transforming, my several copies are all modified. If I recall correctly it was an issue among scenario designers a little while back and was discussed on the Scenario League board hosted here at Apoly. I have never seen five specials and I am not at all certain that they can occur, but it has been claimed in the past here on one of these boards that my making certain changes to the dimensions etc they could happen at the dateline. My brief trial and error efforts with the map editor were unsuccessful.

	16-09-2000 23:13									#22
	Put an end to popups!

Well, there is definitely no “no” transformation in the rules.txt of all the versions of civ. If you make yourself the modification, it is right that specials hills on rivers appear. But you cannot get them back with the civ2map.exe and cannot transform them correctly with your engineers.

This time I definitely give up on this 5 resources pattern. And I will not believe it possible until I am PROVED wrong.