24-01-2002 01:26									#1
	I loved my chosen. Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: I loved my chosen. How then to face the day when she left me? So I took from her body a single cell, perhaps to love her again. Comissioner Pravin Lal "Time of Bereavement"

We all know this text from the Biomachinery. Somehow, this is one of the most troubling for me, especially in the context of the discussion on cloning going on in several countries. Apart of the ethical problems about interfering in human reproduction: There seems to be a great misunderstanding going on. When Lal succeeds in reproducing his chosen, this new human being will not be any more or any less than an identical twin, with a different birthday. She will never be an identical copy. I think it will be one of the most horrible things we can do to someone by forcing him to be as intelligent as Einstein was or writing as fine a music as Bach (or Lennon, if you prefer). Or being the same lover as was the original.
We can see a mild version of the problems already in the Civ3 forum, where a part of the disappointment simply stems from the fact that it is not Civ2.

	24-01-2002 02:15									#2
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Maybe Lal extracted the cell only to have a child with his dead companion? To synthetise an egg cell with her DNA pattern, and then fertilize it.

	24-01-2002 02:40									#3
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quote: to have a child with his dead companion

Don't think this is the point. (As far as I know, women have an average of 40000 egg cells which are never used up durin menstruations. So he could have taken one of these.) Lal said to love her again, which means he really wants to have an identical personality. And this is what worries me: You cannot impose the personality of someone onto someone else.

	24-01-2002 02:43									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well right, the clone would be VERY different than the original. Much of a human being's personality is a result of nurture - of the life they live. Now if Lal could also create a Virtual World for the clone which is exactly like the original (something that I think would be very hard to do) then he might get something close to the original.

	24-01-2002 04:27									#5
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So, Adalbertus, do you then play SMAC ethically, by refusing to research such tech's?

	24-01-2002 04:47									#6
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quote: So, Adalbertus, do you then play SMAC ethically, by refusing to research such tech's?

No (and yes). Game is game, Life is life. And it's one of the purposes of a game to allow things we would not do in real life. Would you try a Planetbuster (or a nuclear bomb only) just for fun on a real Iraq, a real Russia, or a real America, or whatever you feel like? The problem I see simply is that I've got the impression that in real life many people tend to confuse a clone with a 1:1 copy.

But even in the game I try to avoid the use of planetbusters (playing SP). Which doesn't mean that a faction which uses planetbusters has had it. The others get the option of a submissive pact.

	24-01-2002 04:54									#7
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quote: I think it will be one of the most horrible things we can do to someone by forcing him to be as intelligent as Einstein was or writing as fine a music as Bach (or Lennon, if you prefer). Or being the same lover as was the original.

Actually, I don't think the individual him/her self would care any more than people today do. We are already forced to have the genes of our parents - we have no say in that. In some societies people are betrothed to one another and they have no say in the matter - their children are also being engineered in a fashion, cloning is just a more extreme method. Anyway, children have a tendency to reject things that are forced upon them - someone cloned from Einstein and who knew about it might decide against going to college or studying physics and do something entirely different with his life. The two issues I see with cloning are:

1. genetic property - people should own their genes (like they own their heart and limbs) and should be able to decide what is done with them. Clones could not be made without the original's consent. Cloning someone without their consent would be like stealing their parent's child.

2. clones will likely have no close ties to genetic parents - there are many cases of such children in today's society already such as orphans; however, a large influx of clones would require drastic socio-economic changes to accomodate them but it's not impossible.

	24-01-2002 04:59									#8
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some more thoughts...and to clear some terms up first we'd need to rename "biological parents" to the more appropriate term "genetic parents". A clone's genetic parents would then be the parents of the original. The clone and the original would basically be siblings (sisters and brothers). but all this is off topic...

	25-01-2002 04:13									#9
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As long as the original standard isn't applied to the new person... i.e. don't expect Einstein's clone to continue his forbearer's research... there's no problem in my book.

Technology will continue to force us to rethink our centuries-old beliefs about life... and I don't think it's a bad thing. Stem cell research is wonderful; if we can use cells made from natural processes (egg and sperm coming together) to better ourselves, I say go for it. Homo Superior is on the way.

Bush's declaration of the 'sanctity of human life day' last week just underscored the reluctance of many people, usually religious (or those pandering to the religious in Bush's case) to change their views of the world. Manipulating our cells/bodies as we see fit does lessen the necessity for the existence of a god, but it doesn't hasten our decent towards a future of soulless clones.

Remember, the church/religion wanted people to think the earth was the center of the universe. The church/religion has always been a major catalyst in stifling scientific research.

In actuality, scientific research is what's pushing us to be in charge of our own destinies. Religion deals with the symptoms of existing problems; science solves the problems.

This is off topic as well, more or less...

Incidentally, I don't think people are disappointed because Civ3 isn't like Civ2, it's because there are verifiable problems with the game. Then again, with the designer putting so much effort into SimGolf at the same time, it's to be expected. As I've said before, a Civ3 mod for SMAC would have been more playable than the actual Civ3 is . It's peculiar how they built on so many great concepts from Civ2 and SMAC, and ended up with a haphazard game. I remember they said they removed the wonder movies to keep you immersed in the game environment *cough* we got lazy *cough*

	25-01-2002 05:14									#10
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My ideas on playing SMAC ethically were just a silly joke. When you seemed to reply seriously I became scared that you were getting SMAC and RL way too confused. Despite all of this, the truth is that I have never been able to bring myself to use PB's, so I guess that my joke is on me.

	25-01-2002 12:23									#11
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The future that SMAC paints is very bleak indeed. It is a future where science rules the world and threatens the very fabric of humanity ("Those who join us need only give up half . . .") and ethics is abandoned in favor of the abominable "we can do it, therefore we must" mentality.

Don't let it sour your enjoyment of the game (-5 Police still hasn't convinced me to stop believing in capitalism and nothing ever will), but just remember that social commentary can come from unlikely places. Even video games.

	25-01-2002 17:25									#12
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Is Lal's quote related to Centauri Dawn? We know from the arrival story that the only reason he went to Chiron was for her, otherwise there was no point to the trip at all.

*SPOILER WARNING if you haven't read the books*

In Centauri Dawn his wife dies, along with his son and grandson on the same day from the Spartans which was pretty horrible and broke his spirit, as shown in the later books.

Off topic a bit but do you think that this quote means the Gains take over Sparta Command in the third book?

##Headquarters
#FAC1
As we approached we were confronted by the ruined splendor of Sparta Command. The true immensity of the place became instantly apparent as our Quantum Tank crunched over the rubble and parked next to a shattered bunker, but the extent of the destruction took weeks to assess. The shielded datacore had sustained several massive breaches and smoke still billowed from the numerous cannon ports. There were few signs of human life.
^
^ -- Lady Deirdre Skye,
^ "Our Secret War"

quote: The future that SMAC paints is very bleak indeed. It is a future where science rules the world and threatens the very fabric of humanity ("Those who join us need only give up half . . .") and ethics is abandoned in favor of the abominable "we can do it, therefore we must" mentality.

Well this is mainly what the University of Planet represents and their unethical research is shown in the increase in their drones, however they still rule the game. If you don't like technological advancement at all costs though, you can always play the believers.

	26-01-2002 01:08									#13
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quote: As long as the original standard isn't applied to the new person... i.e. don't expect Einstein's clone to continue his forbearer's research... there's

We shall take only the greatest minds, the finest soldiers ...
This is expecting to continue Einstein's research.

Or, real life, and sort of funny (except for the dog) is the wish of some people to have their favourite dog cloned. Economically, there wouldn't be a point in cloning "great minds" if one doesn't expect the clones to be great minds also. (Apart of this, I wouldn't expect Einstein to prosper in the modern world. His driving force was curiosity and not competition. Ok, that's off-topic, too )

	26-01-2002 06:08									#14
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... is the key word.

From within the melancholy, Lal, M.D., was aware his experiment could fail.