24-01-2002 18:20									#31
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"great priest has put some oil on his head , and then made him the King "

Is there some sort of Israeli record agency keeping track of the 'Sons of David' so you know you get the right guy?

Supposed signs of the Messiah:
-Total world peace (perhaps even animals but that could be flowery language)
-Everyone believes in the One True God TM (would take a miracle)
-A King of the House of David in Jerusalem AND a (seperate) high priest in a rebuilt Temple (of the line of Aaron, not too difficult at least).
-A resumption of animal sacrifices (which makes me think the whole thing is a little wierd. Why is waving goats blood at an altar pleasing to the great god of infinite space and time, the god of einstein and proteinomics and the Crab Nebula? Especially when nowadays Judaism has the great advantage over Christianity in how it deals with 'sin', i.e. you just have to say your sorry, mean it, and not do it again)
-Israel shall have its 'natural' borders back (for any nationalist, your countries natural borders are the largest you can possibly claim)

	24-01-2002 21:07									#32
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These people are self-hating Jews. They are ashamed of their Jewish identity and thus try to hide it by pretending to be Christians.

	24-01-2002 21:22									#33
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OUCH! Just banged my elbow on the desk. Goddam that hurts.

Anyway, I was about to say...

You know what I'd like to see? Jews for Haile Selassie. Rasta!!!

On a more serious note, can someone explain to me the difference between a religion and a cult?

	24-01-2002 21:49									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer You know what I'd like to see? Jews for Haile Selassie. Rasta!!!

There actually are a significant number of black Jamaican Jews, due to intermarriages.

	24-01-2002 21:50									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit There actually are a significant number of black Jamaican Jews, due to intermarriages.

Really? Huh. Well, I guess it's true--you learn something new everyday. Which reminds me... perhaps I ought to be studying for tomorrow's final...

	25-01-2002 00:49									#36
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Never heard of the Jamaican Jews, but there are tens of thousands of black Jews from Ethiopia who were airlifted to Israel in the 1980s.

	25-01-2002 00:53									#37
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Was Jesus a Jew then?

	25-01-2002 00:58									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Was Jesus a Jew then?

Yes.

	25-01-2002 01:01									#39
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He believed he was the Messiah, no?

	25-01-2002 01:08									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Natan Never heard of the Jamaican Jews, but there are tens of thousands of black Jews from Ethiopia who were airlifted to Israel in the 1980s.

Them, I've heard of, but I was unaware of the airlift. Was that during the famine?

	25-01-2002 04:53									#41
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this all depends on the matter if Jesus is the Messiah or not.
If Jesus is the Messiah, then the 'jews for Jesus' didn't abandon their religion. (while the rest of them did)

About everything that happens in the New Testament has been prophecied in the Old Testament.
Paul and John didn't teach two different teachings. they agreed during the Apostel Convent.

I'm a christian, but I'm not a jew.
But I believe I have been 'planted' into the jewish tree.
I think that the current Judaism is false. I think the current Jews have missed the fullfillment of their own prophecies. Bad thing

I hope and believe their eyes will be opened though. (In fact I hope all eyes of everyone will be......)

	25-01-2002 05:02									#42
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The mainstream authorities of all the major biblical religions - that is Judaism, Christianity and Islam, are constantly trying to draw sharp barriers between the various faiths but actually there is a lot of overlap. These Jews for Jesus people fall into that grey area I guess.

	25-01-2002 05:04									#43
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Christianity and Judaism are very different. For Jews, there is no son of God. God is one, not three.

The whole ideas of grace and confession never figure into Judaism at all. The Jewish idea is that by deeds alone can you be righteous.

Judaism is also a very tribal thing. You are not only a member of a religion, but also a member of the Jewish nation and, as such, it is very different in that it requires you to be an ethnic Jew before you can entirely be a Jew by religion. Judaism is not out to recruit non-believers. There are converts allowed in certain sects of Judaism, and there is some theological background, but how that works I'm not sure of.

When the Messiah comes, a whole lot of supernatural things happen, like the Temple is rebuilt and all the dead rise up. It's safe to say you'd know it if you saw it.

Last edited by Goingonit on 25-01-2002 at 06:28

	25-01-2002 05:10									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit The whole ideas of grace and confession never figure into Judaism at all. The Jewish idea is that by deeds alone can you be righteous. You sin, tough sh*t. You can do something good to make up for it, but that's it.

Sounds like a very protestant view of what judaism is.

I think it would be as difficult to define "judaism" as it is to define "christianity".

	25-01-2002 05:41									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit The whole ideas of grace and confession never figure into Judaism at all. The Jewish idea is that by deeds alone can you be righteous. You sin, tough sh*t. You can do something good to make up for it, but that's it.

No, to the contrary - the idea that sincere repentence makes up for wrongdoing has always been part of Judaism.

quote: Judaism is also a very tribal thing. You are not only a member of a religion, but also a member of the Jewish nation and, as such, it is very different in that it requires you to be an ethnic Jew before you can entirely be a Jew by religion. Judaism is not out to recruit non-believers. There are converts allowed in certain sects of Judaism, and there is some theological background, but how that works I'm not sure of.

All forms of Judaism allow conversion.

	25-01-2002 05:46									#46
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The Jewish religious calendar has days of atonement and ritual cleansing is a big part of life I thought.

	25-01-2002 06:21									#47
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Rabbi Singer Answers Your Questions

This guy first came to my attention when I saw a newsquip about Jews for Jesus suing Outreach Judasim because they owned jews-for-jesus.com. I love this guy. He rips the Gospels a good one, showing the falsehood of all the Christian claims about Jesus fulfilling prophecy. Cybershy, you oughta check it out.


Outreach Judaism Responds [to Jews For Jesus].

	25-01-2002 06:24									#48
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you can't live your life based on christianity, or any other religion either propably.

so what's the use *bjork* AAAAAAh AAAAAAh of falling in looove*bjork* turururururu

	25-01-2002 06:27									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Natan No, to the contrary - the idea that sincere repentence makes up for wrongdoing has always been part of Judaism.

I stated my point wrongly. You can atone for your sins, but not by telling someone about it or by being in a state of grace.

quote: All forms of Judaism allow conversion.

I was not aware of this - what is the theological grounding?

	25-01-2002 06:41									#50
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Judaism has always allowed conversion. It just ain't easy. If it were, Europe would be Jewish, not Christian. Nowdays its a lot easier, since you have several flavors from which to choose.

	25-01-2002 06:58									#51
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Rabbi Singer Answers Your Questions He rips the Gospels a good one, showing the falsehood of all the Christian claims about Jesus fulfilling prophecy.

War of the Hyperlinks

	25-01-2002 07:09									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit I stated my point wrongly. You can atone for your sins, but not by telling someone about it or by being in a state of grace.

Okay - although there are various ritual atonement customs practiced by Jews in various parts of the world.

quote: I was not aware of this - what is the theological grounding?

I'm not sure what you're asking for here - a philosophical explanation, a Torah passage, a Talmud tractate, a website, or what. But the basic conversion procedure is that you appear before three rabbis who ask you some questions to see if you really know what you're getting into, mostly just questions about Judaism, but they also ask why you would want to join a persecuted nation with strange laws. You answer the questions, immerse yourself in the Mikvah, (ritual bath) and say a blessing.

	25-01-2002 07:42									#53
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Rabbi Singer on atonement

quote: The sin sacrifice, 1 repentance 2 and charity.3 Moreover, the sin sacrifice (known in the Jewish scriptures as Korban Chatat) did not atone for all types of sin, but rather, only for man's most insignificant iniquity: unintentional sins.4 The sin sacrifice was inadequate to atone for a transgression committed intentionally. The brazen sinner was barred from the Sanctuary, and had to bear his own iniquity because of his rebellious intent to sin against God. The Torah teaches this fundamental principle in Numbers 15:27-31: "If a person sins unintentionally, then he shall offer a one year old female goat for a sin offering. And the priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who goes astray when he sins unintentionally, making atonement for him that he may be forgiven.... But the person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from among his people. Because he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be on him."

	25-01-2002 08:11									#54
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More of God's goat-fetish...

BTW, Singer makes a pretty convincing argument that Jesus didn't fulfill the prophecies of the messiah.

1. Kingship is passed via the father (patrilineal). It doesn't matter who Mary was related to. Jesus was not a king from the line of David (virgin birth).

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/messiah.html

2. The prophecy foretells that when the Messiah comes, all nations will know and worship the One God (TM). It doesn't say when he comes, leaves, then comes again. There were many religions in 4BC.

3. The arrival of the Messiah will begin an era of world peace. Didn't happen with Jesus.

4. The Messiah will be King of Israel. There will ALSO be a SEPERATE High Priest in the Temple. Paul yaks in Romans about how Jesus combined both...

5. The Psalm that supposedly foretells the Cruxifixion mistranslates some Hebrew. Singer says that since the normal translation for these same words is used throughout the rest of Bible it looks pretty suspicios that it was a deliberate mistranslation.

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/whojesus.html

6. The prophecy foretells that animal sacrifices will resume with the return of the Messiah, after a period where they have stopped. Jesus struck out on this one too.

7. He also brings up the excellent point that Jesus never actually claimed to be God:
"...throughout the Gospels and Paul’s letters Jesus never claims to be God. On the contrary, the Jesus of the New Testament makes it crystal clear that he is not God, but rather an agent of God. For example, in John 14:28, the author of the fourth Gospel has Jesus declare,

I go unto the Father, for my Father is greater than I."

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/claimgod.html

	25-01-2002 08:16									#55
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I have a question. In Jesus' time, it was considered "moral" to sacrifice say a goat as a burnt offering. You try doing that now and you get jailed for maltreating an animal. Now if the coming of the Messiah would resume animal sacrifices, and since animal sacrifices have long since become "immoral", how would that work? More importantly, since Jesus refuted the sacrifices and similar traditions (we don't read anything about Jesus sacrificing a poor defenseless lamb in teh Gospels, do we?), and didn't exactly fit the criteria, should that automatically make him not teh Messiah? Or was the Messiah simply a vague definition of teh "perfect king" for the people of the time, but over the centuries after the death of Christ, it became synonomous with Jesus? How much has later translations altered the original texts and accounts?

	25-01-2002 08:19									#56
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You people do realize that this actually boring without CivNation or his equivilant here, don't you?

	25-01-2002 08:23									#57
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Animal sacrifice is still pravelent throughout much of the world, so I don't see much of a problem there. My understanding is it's only supposed to be done at the temple, so it won't be as if Jews are suddenly sacrificing animals all over the world.

I can't answer the rest of your questions.

	25-01-2002 13:30									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui This is an interesting question that has bothered me. They would be Christians wouldn't they? But they refuse to be called that. Interesting to say that least. While they believe Jesus is the Messiah, do they believe that he is the son of God?

I'm Catholic and I really don't like being called a Christian.

	25-01-2002 15:10									#59
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Why?

	25-01-2002 15:22									#60
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Because the term Christians often brings to mind protestant extremists (aka nut jobs). I don't want to associated with that. The JewsforJesus may feel the same way.