24-01-2002 06:21									#1
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Anyone have an opinion on these groups? Are they still Jews if they believe in Jesus?

	24-01-2002 06:23									#2
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stop trolling moron

Of course not. Then they are christians.


(Tell me you couldnt figure that out on our on )

	24-01-2002 06:25									#3
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They claim its compatible to remain an orthodox Jew and recognise Jesus as the messiah. The early Christians thought so too.

	24-01-2002 06:25									#4
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If a bleedin Kiwi moves to Oz. Then Blimey, he's no bloody Kiwi. Aye he's a mate.

	24-01-2002 06:26									#5
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does it really matter in the great scheme of things?

	24-01-2002 06:35									#6
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This is an interesting question that has bothered me. They would be Christians wouldn't they? But they refuse to be called that. Interesting to say that least. While they believe Jesus is the Messiah, do they believe that he is the son of God?

	24-01-2002 06:38									#7
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Saint Paul preached in the synagogues, as did Jesus. They wouldn't know what a church was.

	24-01-2002 07:23									#8
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...the consensus among all my Jewish friends (Who happen to make up 35%+ of the student body here), the Jews for Jesus is a cult-like group. In fact, some of my friends go out of their way to argue with them whenever they happen to be preaching on campus. In fact, between them and the LaRouchies, they make up most of the solicitors...

Last edited by Timexwatch on 24-01-2002 at 07:31

	24-01-2002 07:29									#9
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Of course Christianity was considered a cult when it started. Check out this link:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/

	24-01-2002 07:31									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Saint Paul preached in the synagogues, as did Jesus. They wouldn't know what a church was.

Saint Paul also preached to the Gentiles which the first Christians didn't approve of either.

	24-01-2002 07:36									#11
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Yes he did - but that doesn't answer the question. Some ancient Jewish sects allowed conversion. Some didn't. The circumcision and food debates touched on this.

	24-01-2002 07:39									#12
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They are Jews in the sense of being born of Jewish mothers, but they are not practicing Judaism. It has always been the Jewish belief that Jesus was not and could not have been the Messiah, and that his teachings were contrary to the laws of Judaism. Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism, but that doesn't make it synonymous with Judaism. www.outreachjudaism.org

	24-01-2002 07:43									#13
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How can you say that? Only certain Jewish sects reject Jesus. You can be a Christian Jew. You can be an atheist Jew. But you can't be a Jew for Jesus?

	24-01-2002 07:45									#14
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Me (atheist, Catholic parents) and an atheist commie Jewish friend of mine went to a meeting they had at my school on general principle that we dislike prosetylising. We ridiculed the speaker for long enough that he left.

The guy was making claims that any Jew who didn't accept Christ as, well, the Christ was a hypocrite and evil. It was pretty funny, but might have been offensive to any religious Jew who listened to it. They seemed fairly cultish to me.

	24-01-2002 07:45									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse You can be a Christian Jew. ... But you can't be a Jew for Jesus?

Huh?

	24-01-2002 07:49									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse How can you say that?

quote: Only certain Jewish sects reject Jesus.

No, Judaism rejects Jesus. That's what Judaism means. If you want to say that Christianity is a more authentic representation of the ideals of the Old Testament, that's at least a theoretically sensible argument, but Judaism and Christianity are separate religions and to say otherwise is oxymoronic.

quote: You can be a Christian Jew.

Technically yes in the sense of ancestry, but not in the sense of someone who is practicing Judaism.

quote: You can be an atheist Jew.

Same as above.

quote: But you can't be a Jew for Jesus?

Ditto. And you can also be a Jew for Mohammed, Vishnu, Bringham Young and Joseph Kimbangu all at the same time, because a Jew is just someone born of a Jewish mother or converted by a competent rabbinic court. But you won't be practicing Judaism.

These guys pretend that they're practicing Judaism to ensnare Jews who have no clue what they're religion teaches, but to anyone with an ounce of Jewish education, they're just laughable.

	24-01-2002 07:58									#17
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Its a very tricky area. I didn't know judaism defined itself so explicitly in rejecting Jesus.

These Jews for Jesus people do seem a bit cultish. But that could just be a slur.

They claim they can practice judaism, or Jewish religious traditions at least like passover, whilst still following Christ. I think its an interesting concept.

I don't know how they read the Acts of the Apostles where the early Christians had a big debate and decided they didn't have to follow Mosaic law (the uncircumcised breathed a sigh of relief on that one!).

	24-01-2002 08:08									#18
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Ya I wonder as well why a person practing Judaism couldn't believe in Jesus as the Messiah, and the son of God.

If Judaism dates to before Christianity.. how could it state that Jesus isn't the Messiah? Or is this something that was added on after?

How could Judaism and Christianity be totally different religions when they both worship the God of Isacc, Abraham, and David?

	24-01-2002 08:24									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Its a very tricky area. I didn't know judaism defined itself so explicitly in rejecting Jesus.

The thing is, Judaism is absolutely insistent that the Talmud be respected as the source of religious law. Christianity holds the opposite, and Christainity's views the redactors of the Talmud are well known - they're called Pharisees. Judaism more or less returns the dissapproval. Only without the forced conversions.

quote: I don't know how they read the Acts of the Apostles where the early Christians had a big debate and decided they didn't have to follow Mosaic law (the uncircumcised breathed a sigh of relief on that one!).

It seems to me that they don't fit completely into either religion.

November Adam: Because the idea that God came to Earth as a human being, died for humanity's sins, and made it obligatory for all to acknowledge his coming to be "saved," is not consistant with Judaism. But more importantly, Jesus's sermons against the Pharisees contradict the teachings of Judaism, and the two are not compatible.

	24-01-2002 08:29									#20
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Two thousand years of persecution, killings and hatred over a theological differance? Talk about a feud.

	24-01-2002 08:32									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Natan November Adam: Because the idea that God came to Earth as a human being, died for humanity's sins, and made it obligatory for all to acknowledge his coming to be "saved," is not consistant with Judaism. But more importantly, Jesus's sermons against the Pharisees contradict the teachings of Judaism, and the two are not compatible.

Interesting... so what's your take on this?

quote: If you want to say that Christianity is a more authentic representation of the ideals of the Old Testament, that's at least a theoretically sensible argument.

What is your perception of Jesus' sermons against the Pharisees?

	24-01-2002 08:32									#22
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In my History class, we started with the beginning of Christianity and it started out as a Jewish sect (a fairly small and unusual one), but St. Paul turned it around by accepting everyone instead of just Jews, plus the whole Romanizing of Christianity. Therefore it's possible.

	24-01-2002 08:37									#23
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Is it possible that Jesus' sermons only contradicted the Pharisses legalistic approach to Judaism, as opposed to the spirtual aproach to it?

	24-01-2002 08:41									#24
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I believe that their preferred name is "Messianic Jews" .

	24-01-2002 08:43									#25
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Of course Judiasm and Christianity are linked.....its just not open ended.


Judiasm, pretty much ends with the Torah...They still await the messiah. So naturally from the jewish perspective, they have 0 in common with christianity. Since Jews dont recognize christ, they dont really share anything with christianity.

Christians on the other hand, adopted many of the Old testament prohecies and books. Because we acknowledge that Jesus is our Savour, we look at Judiasm as our roots because it is. Because from Judiasm hundreds of years before christ, God promised a messiah that would bring a new covenant. Not just so jews could be Gods Chosen people, but so the gentiles could aswell (gentile=pretty much everybody not jewish I think). So from a christian perspective, our religons are tied.

	24-01-2002 08:46									#26
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Okay so where do Lebovitchers (or whatever they are called) fit into the picture? Don't they believe their rabbi was the messiah?

	24-01-2002 15:46									#27
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It's been a while since I've read this history, but, if memory serves, Christ's disciples were split into two factions following his death/resurrection/promise to "be right back." The faction led by Paul saw the future in preaching to the Gentiles, starting with those in Asia Minor (Ephesians, Galatians, etc.). But the faction led by James, Christ's brother (or at least half-brother, depending on your views on the whole virgin-birth thing), saw the future in preaching to the Jews in Jerusalem, not to convert them to a new religion but instead to get them to accept the teachings of Christ as consistent with and an extension of Judaism. Paul, who was converting pagans, played up the son-of-God angle to great effect; his converts were already steeped in stories of the gods showing up on earth in human form. James, however, did not, because it would be anathema to fellow Jews (and probably also because nobody in history could ever, with a straight face, claim his brother was the son of God); instead, James pushed the notion of Christ as Messiah. Where James met an entrenched Temple establishment eager to deny his claims, Paul met none. That, coupled with the very bad 1st century CE that Jews in Jerusalem suffered generally, pretty much quashed James' efforts, and Paul's version -- of Christianity as its own religion, rather than an evolved forn of Judaism -- triumphed.

I don't know squat about the contemporary Jews for Jesus, but clearly James and his gang in Jerusalem thought the proposition logical and consistant with Judaism; indeed, they were Jews for Jesus.

edited for atrocious spelling

Last edited by Rufus T. Firefly on 24-01-2002 at 18:14

	24-01-2002 16:24									#28
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Hmmm...

What about Atheists For Jesus?

	24-01-2002 17:28									#29
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a very interesting thing is that the concept of "the son of god" cannot exist in Judaism . The Messiah is not the "son of god" but rather the one that the great priest has put some oil on his head , and then made him the King , by divine authority. what makes this different from the kings of the mid-ages , that this doesn't mean that the king can do what he want, because god's law is the most important thing, rather then the king, and the king must obey the law, as everyone else should.

	24-01-2002 18:03									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Okay so where do Lebovitchers (or whatever they are called) fit into the picture? Don't they believe their rabbi was the messiah?

Firstly, most of them do not believe that he was the Messiah - if you go to the web page of the Habad-Lubavitch movement, they'll say nothing of the sort. Secondly, the few wackos who do say it still don't claim that he's the son of God, and even so, their view is widely considered completely illegitimate. As Rabbi Shach, leader of the Misnagid Jewish community in Israel said, when asked what he thought of the idea of the Lubavitcher Rebbe as Messiah - "Utter heresy. Those who believe it will burn in hell."