24-01-2002 21:49									#1
	Is There A Sure-Fire Way To Get A Civ To Like You? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

On apolyton pack and nordicus trade goods, I revisited that one game I couldn't win (2 civs, min goods, etc), and realize it's because I have to build troops all game to defend against them, instead of building cities.

If only there were some diplomatic "trick" I could use to make that powerful enemy civ on my continent like me, at least until maybe 1100ad, so I could build cities instead of troops all game. Does anyone know any such trick?

cold

	25-01-2002 03:00									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well, I once wrote a brief diplomacy guide for CtP2 but I'm not sure how much of it is useful for CtP1 as well (it's been a while since I last played). The file is included in WesW's MedMod 2 (for CtP2 of course) but to prevent you from having to go through the process of downloading a whole mod to view a single file I've taken it out and put it on my own website for you, here. The following part is probably the most important and relevant part for CtP1:

quote: Also, be generous if an AI doesn't like you very much, by giving gold/maps/advances often (I've found that it's generally better to give small gifts often than to give big things only occasionally). If you're on good terms with an AI, you don't need to be quite as generous but an occasional gift is useful to maintain that good relationship. Agreeing on any proposal the AI makes, or at least countering it by something reasonable, helps a great deal. Of course, holding receptions, establishing embassies, trade and building diplomacy-wonders helps a lot as well. Getting any kind of treaty ASAP is very important as that raises trust quickly, which of course makes future negotiations much easier.

Hope that helps...

	26-01-2002 00:52									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thanks. But looks like nothing will work in this case. I can give them 100 gold 15 turns in a row, in the early ad's, and they still attack. The closest thing I could come up with is if you have a tech they don't, you can try to trade it for some advanced tech they don't want to give you, over and over, and they will love you after 7 or 8 tries. But sometimes you can't get any tech they don't already have, the whole game. And even then, their regard eventually falls anyway, and they come after you. Oh well. It's just a game that is impossible for the human player to win. Hard to believe.

	26-01-2002 03:34									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by coldsteel It's just a game that is impossible for the human player to win. Hard to believe.

Hmm, that's very odd. I don't remember for CtP1, but in CtP2 I can always keep someone from attacking me if I really want to, never had any serious trouble with that...

Especially your last 2 sentences are quite intriguing. I've had plenty of trouble with the AI before but I don't think I ever actually lost (except test games and in the first few turns due to very early barbarian activity). Could you by any chance upload/email the savegame for that game? For such a special game I wouldn't mind digging up my CtP1 cd again and give it a go. Maybe I have a trick or two up my sleeve that you don't, but even when that's not the case I'd love to actually loose some time...

If you do indeed decide to upload (I can provide space if you need it)/email the savegame, I'll need to know exactly what mods you're using. You mentioned Apolyton Pack and Nordicus trade goods, do you know what versions (and possibly where to download them)? Any other mods or customizations I should know about?

	26-01-2002 22:31									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Why beat around the bushes?

Kick the crap out of them and make them beg for peace!! They will like you all right if you accept their treaty .

If this doesn't work, at least, you'll have the decency to go down with dignity

Last edited by jpww on 26-01-2002 at 22:46

	29-01-2002 08:04									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Unfortunately I deleted it in disgust. However, you can probably make your own, if you want to lose. From the apolyton site download the latest apolyton pack and nordicus trade goods. Set the sliders for 2 opponents, deity, no barbarians, normal, and for the map go max warm/dry, two notches from min water, max continent, max uniform, min trade goods.

What you want is a start on a plains river with no real trade goods. Hopefully the orange is on your continent, and they started with a mountain river and lots of other mountains. And they are militarist or aggressive. And you have a large border with them, no easily sealed peninsula.

If the orange get all the wonders first, and they get them reasonably fast, like sphinx 1200bc or whatever and ramayana/labyrinth before 0ad or shortly thereafter, and all the rest, then they will be tough. You meanwhile hopefully have no mountains at all anywhere within your reach, and no oils, no decent trade goods.

If the green and orange never declare war, and if the orange get all your techs fast and keep getting every tech before you do, or even if they don't sometimes... the best is green dies during the first few turns, or else is so primitive they are no use to you all game... What will happen is you have little gold, and it takes forever to do research. Meanwhile the orange get all the military techs before you do, and with all those mountain cities they can keep the pressure on. Eventually you spend the whole game making troops to keep them out, and no hope of attacking them, and thus not able to make city developments to increase research. eventually you get overrun by fusion tanks, or they start building alien life in 1869 and all you can do is watch.

	29-01-2002 19:21									#7
	Remove this text

Hmm, if you don't have the savegame anymore I might as well try that same approach in CtP2, saves me an awful lot of trouble reinstalling and uninstalling everything... Thanks for the info anyway.

	31-01-2002 02:24									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

a particularly devestating event is one time i sealed them out until 1824, when their civ disintegrated due to pollution. "I finally won!" I thought -- however while the orange civ is not a great military strategist, the *barbarians* send everything they've got, all at once! I was destroyed in 5 turns by fusion tanks and war walkers. IF you can get communism by, say, 1700, you can max production and build enough science to get at least nukes in time -- but some games you must research industrial revo yourself, with your miniscule gold, which takes forever, and you don't ever make it past that, before the fusion tanks and space fighters and all that come down against your cannons. it's a very special case, this losing to ctp1, but it can be done. the key is having to build a ton of troops instead of developing, and getting zero tech help from trades or demands. if you could guarantee peace all game, you would never lose of course. i don't know any way to do that.

	01-02-2002 15:37									#9
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Your position in the power graph has an important impact on how the AI regards you too. If you are high you will have less problems with aggressive civilizations.

And 100 gold is too small to improve the relations.
Always prefer advances and maps instead.

	02-02-2002 03:58									#10
	diplo Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

In CTP2 i would make peace with on civ and over time buy its cities to make it as small as possible. As soon as I had a diplomat I made that civ my tech researcher. Then I concentrated on killing everything around me while my tech partner did all my research. The AI is really stupid but it cheats SO much I feel no guilt.

	05-02-2002 14:50									#11
	Re: diplo Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by paulmagusnet The AI is really stupid but it cheats SO much I feel no guilt.

Actually, the AI in CtP2 doesn't cheat *that* much, it's just that there is a bug in the reseach pact which means that the AI gets 1 new advance every turn while the human player gets no (noticable) bonus whatsoever. Most of the mods have removed this particular treaty because of this bug (and improved the AI a LOT as well)...

	06-04-2002 15:45									#12
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by coldsteel Unfortunately I deleted it in disgust. However, you can probably make your own, if you want to lose. From the apolyton site download the latest apolyton pack and nordicus trade goods. Set the sliders for 2 opponents, deity, no barbarians, normal, and for the map go max warm/dry, two notches from min water, max continent, max uniform, min trade goods. What you want is a start on a plains river with no real trade goods. Hopefully the orange is on your continent, and they started with a mountain river and lots of other mountains. And they are militarist or aggressive. And you have a large border with them, no easily sealed peninsula. If the orange get all the wonders first, and they get them reasonably fast, like sphinx 1200bc or whatever and ramayana/labyrinth before 0ad or shortly thereafter, and all the rest, then they will be tough. You meanwhile hopefully have no mountains at all anywhere within your reach, and no oils, no decent trade goods. If the green and orange never declare war, and if the orange get all your techs fast and keep getting every tech before you do, or even if they don't sometimes... the best is green dies during the first few turns, or else is so primitive they are no use to you all game... What will happen is you have little gold, and it takes forever to do research. Meanwhile the orange get all the military techs before you do, and with all those mountain cities they can keep the pressure on. Eventually you spend the whole game making troops to keep them out, and no hope of attacking them, and thus not able to make city developments to increase research. eventually you get overrun by fusion tanks, or they start building alien life in 1869 and all you can do is watch.

SOLUTION:

1/ You can't win a game which is already lost
2/ You can win any game with AI.
3/ Any think has a beginning and a game starts with turn 1, and any next turn is less important then the previous one.
Think for the game as a plant that you grow.
4/ To win, you have to minimize the chance of mistake in the beginning of the game. What means you have to start building you chances instead of waiting them.
5/ There are many thinks in you hands, waiting for your decision just in turn 1.
6/ Ask your self "What is the best setting for this parameter?"
It could be location, time or any other existing value that depend on your decision.
To get the right decisions in turn 1, you need something very important called "PLAN"
You need to have a plan for at least the next 10 turns ahead.
You build your plan on the base of >>What you "SEE" in this turn + What you need
Then try to make at least 3 different forecasts for the nearest thinks (in time and location) you don't see.
Accept the most probable of them and build your plan on that base.
Once you have the plan, try to maximize the values of any parameter according to the plan
Then hit "End turn" and repeat everything again.
With the time you will learn and see that you can have nested plans and you can achieve any one of them using and manipulating in a mixed strategy
2, 3 Sub Plans.
Of course the 'Plans Tree" comes together with the associated "Decision Tree".
7/ If you do the right thinks from the beginning you will be much more happy when AI hates you.
For example if you use the "Slaver Strategy". You may be very surprised to see how you can build a town from size 0 to size 18 in one turn only.
8/ The Diplomacy DOSN'T MATTER (YET). It just misleads you when you are already weak, the game is lost and you turn to it for last help what will finish with more losses.
9/ Don't forget >This is a strategy game and the army is a tool, which becomes useful when you are already the strongest player.
10/ Any problem has a history and solution (It starts in the past and the sooner you find it, the easier the solution will be)

When you are ready,
Your problem won't be "HOW TO WIN?" but "HOW TO WIN FAST?"