25-01-2002 05:49									#1
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My first game of Civ ever(played some SMAC but never finished a game). I was playing easy and was on my last 6 turns, I wanted to see what some units could do so I rushed production on a carrier a batteship and 3 destroyers. I loaded the carrier with 4 fighters and sent them to blow something up. They got to the shores of a Civ that gave me trouble early in the game and I launched a bombing mission on one of thier cities. On the very next turn they respond with ONE ironclad and it attacks one of destroyers. I think this should be an easy battle. But NOOOO, the ironclad takes out the destro with no loss of life. Thinking it was a freak occurence I concentrated the entire remaining battlegroup on the ironclad, it then proceded to take out the entire damn fleet only taking one point of health the whole fight. I was shocked and just ended up hitting end turn to the game's finish.

~Oth

	25-01-2002 06:14									#2
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Yeah. My cavalry often fall prey to the enemy's swordsmen... which isn't so odd, at least not when you think about the numbers. Cavalry has 3 defense and swordsmen have 3 attack. If a swordsman attack a cavalry, they are evenly matched!

Can you imagine these prehistoric brutes running like speedy gonzales to catch up with civil war-era cavalry?

I think removing firepower as a unit value was a bad idea.

	25-01-2002 06:24									#3
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Naval units seem particularly susceptible to unlikely upsets... I have cannon-laden Privateers sunk by Galleys with measly archers all the time.

I've also had Cavalry dispatched by Longbowmen and Spearmen, and Tanks destroyed by Pikemen.

Something tells me we've all read this thread before, though.

	25-01-2002 06:33									#4
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Don't feel too bad, I once lost a full health battleship to a near dead caravel.

What really annoys me is when 8 battleships all bombard the same ship and all of them miss.

	25-01-2002 07:32									#5
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quote: Originally posted by FNBrown Naval units seem particularly susceptible to unlikely upsets... I have cannon-laden Privateers sunk by Galleys with measly archers all the time.

That's not surprising since privateers have the exact same stats as galleys do :-)

	25-01-2002 09:16									#6
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quote: Originally posted by FNBrown Naval units seem particularly susceptible to unlikely upsets... I have cannon-laden Privateers sunk by Galleys with measly archers all the time. I've also had Cavalry dispatched by Longbowmen and Spearmen, and Tanks destroyed by Pikemen. Something tells me we've all read this thread before, though.

I changed in Editor the attack value of a privateer to '3'. It attacked a galley; both full strength veterans. The galley sunk the privateer! :LOL: How absurd.

Even more absurd is that bombers canot sink any warship!! Absurd. Totally non-historical. I guess Sid knows nothing about World War Two.

I gave bombers attack and defense values, and movement capability, in Editor. It WILL now sink ships. Whatever strange things it does to the game it will be better than what Sid gave us.

Beyond that, privateers (and subs) should be attacking TRADE ROUTES and merchant shipping. That is their historical purpose. Sid messed up on that, too.

What we need is a combat bonus (say, 25%) for all units of a more advanced Age. For example, a Mechanized Infantry gets another 25% if it attacked a Cavalry unit.

Firaxis, patch this messed up game!!

	25-01-2002 09:25									#7
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Now that you figured out how to make bombers sink ships, will you stop complaining about it?

	25-01-2002 09:33									#8
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I assume you mean that you can use the editor to tweak bombers so that they can sink ships?

I'm really going to have to start playing around with that...

	25-01-2002 09:34									#9
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Six posts and nary an apologist in sight

Oh well...guess it falls on me to pick up the slack. Othalias, that Ironclad was not armed with brass cannons. Instead, it was fitted with Silkworm cruise missles that were purchased on the black market. This explains how it was able to take out that first destroyer. As it just so happens, the commander of the remaining vessels were all in the bathroom when the ironclad attacked. This allowed the ironclad to strike quickly and decisively and completely destroy your fleet. Completely plausible (on the Bizzaro world).

Monsterman: swordsmen can defeat cavalry easily. What usually happens is as the cavalry move to attack they suddenly realize their boots are unlaced. They have to dismount to relace them, don't they? And when they do, the swordsmen can fall upon the cavalry troop and make short work of them.

The caravel defeating the battleship was probably something similar to the fate of the U.S.S. Cole. See, it wasn't really an archaic caravel--it was actually a wooden ship packed with explosives. It moved in close to the battleship and BOOM! Your battleship was gone. How did the caravel then sail away? Well...uhm...uh.....

	25-01-2002 09:41									#10
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Terser - thank you for your sensible reasoning. Upon further reflection, I am only disappointed in my own inability to reach the same conclusions.

	25-01-2002 10:05									#11
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In my last game I was attacked by the Germans. No problems I thought, i have tons of cavalry in my city. Attacking the german cavalry with my cavalry (veterans against veterans in plains) I lost 9 of 12 fights. I quit the game, don't want to continue such nonsense. I don't know how this is possible.

	25-01-2002 10:12									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Terser The caravel defeating the battleship was probably something similar to the fate of the U.S.S. Cole. See, it wasn't really an archaic caravel--it was actually a wooden ship packed with explosives. It moved in close to the battleship and BOOM! Your battleship was gone. How did the caravel then sail away? Well...uhm...uh.....

Perhaps a possible origin for the Flying Dutchman? Or perhaps even a possible reasoning for a custom medieval ship which is near invincible.

	25-01-2002 10:15									#13
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It should be noted the USS Cole still exists. It should be back in service next year.

	25-01-2002 10:17									#14
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I was just reminded of something.

My sig kind of sums up the whole spearman defeating a tank thingie.

	25-01-2002 10:25									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident It should be noted the USS Cole still exists. It should be back in service next year.

Duly noted. It should also be pointed out that the men who actually undertook the attack now exist only at the atomic level. They did not punch a hole in the Cole and then sail off into the sunset.

As would happen in CiviIII...

	25-01-2002 10:30									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Terser Duly noted. It should also be pointed out that the men who actually undertook the attack now exist only at the atomic level. They did not punch a hole in the Cole and then sail off into the sunset. As would happen in CiviIII...

It's unfortunate that political correctness kept the terrorist unit from being carried over from CivII. Unpleasantries aside, it's a realistic problem and not having it detracts from the game.

	25-01-2002 11:06									#17
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Encomium


Even more absurd is that bombers canot sink any warship!! Absurd. Totally non-historical. I guess Sid knows nothing about World War Two. [QUOTE]

I don't know which WWII bombers sinking which ships you are talking about. I am a highly read WWII student.

In World War Two, high altitude bombers sinking moving ships was rare. The bomber in Civ 3 represents something like a B17, a high altitude bomber. In Midway battle, among others, B17's tried to hit moving ships, from 12,000+ feet high.

Low level bombers, torpedo bombers. or dive bombers are a different story. Pearl Harbor, Truk, Midway, etc. dive bombers attacking at dives sometimes only a couple hundred feet above the ships.

High altitude bombers were too unmaneuverable, as well as being a big target, to go up against a typical WWII capital ship and expect to survive most low level attacks.

	25-01-2002 11:47									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Terser Six posts and nary an apologist in sight Oh well...guess it falls on me to pick up the slack. Othalias, that Ironclad was not armed with brass cannons. Instead, it was fitted with Silkworm cruise missles that were purchased on the black market. This explains how it was able to take out that first destroyer. As it just so happens, the commander of the remaining vessels were all in the bathroom when the ironclad attacked. This allowed the ironclad to strike quickly and decisively and completely destroy your fleet. Completely plausible (on the Bizzaro world)......

How the hell do you sleep at night?

	25-01-2002 12:38									#19
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good point about bombers. We wouldn't complain about bombers not killing ships if there were a special air unit capable of doing so. But the function of that unit would be difficult to implement, and would only be useful until superior anti-aircraft equipment came into being (phalanx gatling gun, sea sparrow anti-aircraft missles, AEGIS technology etc.)

	25-01-2002 12:49									#20
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Thats when you open up the civ3mod.bic file and change the defense and attack rating of the modern units in the game.
By the editor by right clicking on the file and Open, don't forget to save the old file somewhere on the computer, in case, ................

	25-01-2002 14:01									#21
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Othalias: I´ve never seen anything like this. Could you post the savegame here so I could try it out?

	25-01-2002 15:27									#22
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What do you mean it was rare in WW2. HMS Repulse and HMS Prince of Wales were both sunk by land based high level bombers. They were battleships and they lost. Yet in Civ 3 a bomber or artilery can not sink a iron clad.
What bullshit it was lazy coding, in order to get the game out.

	25-01-2002 16:11									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Deathwalker What do you mean it was rare in WW2. HMS Repulse and HMS Prince of Wales were both sunk by land based high level bombers. They were battleships and they lost. Yet in Civ 3 a bomber or artilery can not sink a iron clad. What bullshit it was lazy coding, in order to get the game out. :madban:

I think it was a deliberate decision, to not make the game too easy. I'd rather have a hard time than being bored to death, the modern age is uninteresting enough as it is (I want real nukes dammit :)