25-01-2002 08:44									#1
	The random maps are ugly. Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

They look like octopuses. This is because the random map generator gives each civ about the same maneuvering space on a stupid-looking "continent".

Also, all the civs always start near the coast so there are none that end up landlocked.

The pangea maps don't have enough islands around them. Certainly not any ones of significance. The continents or archipelago ones have too many islands.

Totally unrealistic.

Why can't I get a map with one or two very large continents, a few small islands, and a bunch of tiny islands?

I create my own maps in the map editor, but this takes at least six hours for the huge maps and ruins the discovery element of the game.

	25-01-2002 09:38									#2
	Re: The random maps are ugly. Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by siredgar The pangea maps don't have enough islands around them.

Anyone else see a problem with this statement?

	25-01-2002 09:44									#3
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What problem?

The only problem I have is when the archipelago maps don't give me enough large continents.

	25-01-2002 09:51									#4
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I actually think the random map generator is pretty decent, especially in comparison to the one in Civilization II. One of the things that really leapt out at me in my first game of CivIII was seeing chains of mountains and hills, vast swards of grassland, and large deserts dotting the landscape. A refreshing respite from CivII's dartboard distribution of terrain.

I agree about there not being enough variation in terrain size, though. Even choosing midsized continents basically yields three or four large contienents and a whole lot of water. What I would really like to see is a map with large continents and a smattering of small islands. Kinda like the real world.

	25-01-2002 10:12									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I love the maps so much better than civ2. I hated the map generator in civ2 with a passion. Hence I usually used premade maps in civ2.

granted the map generator needs more work. But at least progress has been made. One of the few areas of the game.

This is actually something in civ3 I have no complaints about. And if you don't like the maps, just download some.

	25-01-2002 10:25									#6
	Got spare money?

Yes, yes, they're much better than Civ II and I misspoke about the pangea map, but the point is is that these maps are terribly ugly and skewed. More importantly, there is no option in between "pangea" and "continents".

The map that I created took me about 9 hours today. It is on a huge map with the following:

one giant "round"-shaped continent (approx. 40% of surface area), "Eurasia"
- nine player starting locations around the periphery (most near the coast, not on the coast: therefore does not ensure a coastline for each civ, some will have to fight their way out)
- three player starting locations in the interior (these must explore rapidly to get a port location, usually only one actually does, the rest are landlocked).
- mostly comprised of temperate zone features: pinewoods, forests, mountains, hills, iron, coal, saltpeter, horses, etc.
- features and resources are similar in each civ's initial zone (most will eventually get access to iron, coal, and saltpeter).

one large continent (approx. 15% of surface area), "Africa"
- no player starting locations, however reachable by most civs.
- tropical/desert features: oil, ivory, rubber, etc.

one medium continent (approx. 7% of surface area), "N. America"
- temperate features
- more iron and coal, some oil
- aluminum

two small continents (approx. 3% of surface area each), "S. America"
- tropical features
- dyes and more rubber
- some oil

one small continent (approx. 2% of surface area), "Australia"
- temperate features
- aluminum

group of small islands (about six with two to four spaces each), "Spice Islands"
- tropical features
- lots of spices
- scattered, so that a single civ does not take all

Obviously, this map is very similar to the real-world maps. However, I didn't like it when you have Italy starting out on Japan's location, etc. So, to equalize opportunities and have a realistic looking map, I created this one. I would like to know if it's possible to have something even remotely close to this for the random map generator.

	25-01-2002 11:33									#7
	Suffering from ads?

I don't know, I've heard a lot of complaints about Civ III, but the map generator is not one of them. I like the way it's making them as well, I think they've done a pretty good job with the terrain. It seems you're a distinct minority on that score, so I'm afraid you shouldn't expect any changes to be made there. Just learn to live with it I guess.

	25-01-2002 17:53									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I agree the random maps are "ugly", but this big old chunk of rock we live on aint too pretty either. I think the maps in civ 3 are pretty reasonable, I would like pangea to actually mean pangea and always produce just the one continent, and archipelego maps to generate more distinct, usable islands (ideally, at least one island per starting civ, and a few more for fun).

	25-01-2002 20:05									#9
	Tired of ads?

My only fault with the maps is that I think rivers running through Plains should have Grassland on their banks, the same way that Deserts have Floodplains. At any rate, it's certainly a big improvement over Civ II's hodge podge of terrain types all over the place.

	26-01-2002 03:55									#10
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I would like three improvements.

1) I agree about the seeming lack of distinction between the landmass choices (I agree with OneInTen's comments above). My maps never look like the ones in the setup screen. I usually get a major and a minor continent, plus one or two teeny islands, if any at all, when I chose either Pangaea or Continents. That is not to say other configurations are not possible; Most games I start don't get to the stage where the entire map is revealed, so my impression may be just an illusion. I just can't seem to get what I'm shooting for. For example, I can't seem to generate an octopuss-shaped Pangea, where all the players are on the same landmass, but with lots of bottlenecks and maybe some large interior seas.

2) Rivers should originate on both sides of Mountain ranges.

3) Map specifications (and all other game setup choices) should be sticky rather than revert back to the default.

	26-01-2002 04:45									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

the settings do get saved for me, both in the game's menu and in the map editor generation screen, or do you mean something else?

	26-01-2002 05:33									#12
	Support Apolyton

they improved after release, the settings will "stick" as long as you have the patch

	26-01-2002 18:34									#13
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The map generator is a definite improvement on civ2, however there is a huge amount that could be done to improve it.

1. It would be nice to have more islands with the continents and pangaea settings.

2. The terrain is more differentiated than in civ2, which is more realistic, however the huge swathes of grassland are more boring to play on. In civ2 each city had it's own character, like a forest city with high production and a plains city with a good balance of abilites. In civ3, thanks to the changed forest rules, and mining grassland, every city is a mined grassland sprawl. What should be done is to create an interesting environment within each differentiated area.

3. Rivers should emerge from mountains, not vice versa.

4. Something should be done about the grid like mountains and the green hills in the middle of deserts and tundra.

5. More terrain features. Some of my ideas:
A natural harbour square which gives any adjacent city a free harbour.
Different types of coastline.
Different types of forest.
Volcano squares.

	28-01-2002 20:06									#14
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I do have the (correct) patch.

When I have already loaded a game and then restart, selecting New Game, the settings of the earlier game do "stick." This is good if I want to generate a similar game with the same settings (or just want to check the settings of the current game).

However, when I start the game and select New Game, all the world settings are default: Standard size, Continents (middle setting), Roaming barbarians, etc. The player is the same as before. I expect all the settings to be the same as the last-generated game.

I can get what I want using the first procedure above, so my request is relatively trivial, but it's annoying to go through that extra step.

In general, though, I agree that the map generator is greatly improved. But it's human nature to want more, more, more!

	28-01-2002 20:15									#15
	"What may I trade for your WORLD maps?" Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Another solution could be editing world maps and "trading" them among other people who have made their own world maps. You will keep the "discovery challenge".

	29-01-2002 23:19									#16
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There should be at least one or two landlocked civs.

I didn't see too many random maps in Creation last time I checked.