25-01-2002 23:18									#1
	Got my first leader, some advice please.. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm playing the Romans and have 14 cities. It's 130 AD, Regent, 14civs, huge map and I'm surrounded by strong Greeks, weak Aztecs, strong Russians, average Iroquois.. I'm first in Culture, in the middle of the pack in Power rankings. Should I: 1) Build an army of legionaries so that I can get the Heroic Epic later or should I: 2) build a Great Wonder -- which one? a) Great Library. 100 shields completed but other civs may be closer; b) Great Lighthouse. No one else has started yet; c) Great Wall. Other civs have been building this for a while. Forbidden Palace is not available yet.

Thanks for your help!

	25-01-2002 23:37									#2
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When I feel the game gets close, I would always take the great lib with a leader. making an army is more just for the fun of it

	25-01-2002 23:50									#3
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1st option. Build an army with your first leader and let it win once (make sure it does). Build the Heroic epic and later the Military academy. The ancient wonders (including the GLib) aren't worth to be rushed with a leader.

If you get another leader in the game (or even a few), use him/them to rush crucial small or great wonders (Forbidden Palace, Sistine Chapel, Hoover Dam, UN or similar).

	26-01-2002 01:14									#4
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Building the Great Library is a good strategy if you're behind in tech, but otherwise not worth it.

	26-01-2002 02:55									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Allemand Building the Great Library is a good strategy if you're behind in tech, but otherwise not worth it.

Agreed. It expires too soon.

I was thinking of posting a similar question.

First of all, I would use the leader for *something* quickly, as you can't get a GL when you already have one (AFAIK). If there aren't any wonders or small wonders that you want, build the army and go for heroic epic, to help get more leaders later. As someone said in this thread "make sure your army wins." To that I would add: "review army construction rules *first* so you have the desired units to add (such as three vet legions, in the case of Rome).

I got two (so far) in my current game as Babylon. I used the first to build the Sistine, and the second to grab Sun Tzu. I didn't much want the Art of War (not that I mind having it), but I wouldn't have another Great Wonder for many, many turns, and I hope to generate another GL by then. I could have used the second one for the FP, and maybe I should have. I guess I'm hoping to use the FP as the center of a hypothetical New World empire, as per Vel.

I never considered using it for an army, and that might have been silly, as I was under heavy attack by the Persians at the time (heavy = 15 Immortals when I'm defending with swordsmen and spearmen). Three vet swordsmen to defend after my vet horse soften them up...

	26-01-2002 03:42									#6
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To add only vet units to the army is nice, but not necessary, as they continue to gain experience inside the army. Legions are fine. Put 3 in the army and you have a hardly to beat battle colossus for the ancient period. Attack a softened up unit first (i.e. make sure the army wins). Once it won a battle, it has made it's main goal. Don't worry if you lose it later. Armies are short-living unit groups anyway, because the units can't (yet?) been upgraded, when they are in the army. With the Military Academy you can later build armies at heart's content (as much as your # of cities allows).

	26-01-2002 03:57									#7
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Actually, it depends on how you want to play the rest of the game. If you plan to be throwing your weight around a bit, then an army is a must. If you will be doing lots of fighting, then increased chances of more leaders is good.

Benefit of having an army:
The legions are well balanced, defend as well as a pikeman or Hoplite, and also attack as well as a standard swordsman. So an army built with them could be used both for offencive and defensive purposes. As a defensive army, its shelf-life is increased even further, as it takes quite a long time to remove its 12 or so hit-points.

OTOH, if you aren't gonna be fighting much, an increased chance of getting leaders will not get you any more leaders. Then again, most of the wonder's arent necessary.

Benefits of making a wonder:
You get the wonder, and more importantly prevent the enemy from getting a wonder. If you do decide to build a wonder, make sure its NOT in the city currently building a wonder - that would waste all 100 shields. Instead, start a wonder in some other city from scratch, and rush it. It will still be built in one turn. If you want the Great Library first, switch the other city to another wonder first, and then rush it from scratch.

	26-01-2002 12:22									#8
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I no longer use the army I make as a fighting unit. I just put in the best unit at the time (only one). I wait for a near dead unit to sent it against and win the battle, now you make the EPIC and put the army out graze. The biggest complaint is that you can not upgrade once in an army. What is worse than 3 riflemen that can not be mech or 3 horsmen or knights that can not be calv.

	26-01-2002 12:49									#9
	Re: Got my first leader, some advice please.. Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Feephi I'm playing the Romans and have 14 cities. It's 130 AD, Regent, 14civs, huge map and I'm surrounded by strong Greeks, weak Aztecs, strong Russians, average Iroquois.. I'm first in Culture, in the middle of the pack in Power rankings. Should I: 1) Build an army of legionaries so that I can get the Heroic Epic later or should I: 2) build a Great Wonder -- which one? a) Great Library. 100 shields completed but other civs may be closer; b) Great Lighthouse. No one else has started yet; c) Great Wall. Other civs have been building this for a while. Forbidden Palace is not available yet. Thanks for your help!

If you decide on a wonder, don't bother with Great Lighthouse or Great Wall. Both are rather useless IMO. You get the same benefit of the Lighthouse as soon as you discover Astronomy, and Great Wall only increases the defence strength of walls, which become obsolete as soon as the city gets over 6 population. So there's really only two options you have available, the Army or the Great Library. Myself, I would probably go with Great Library, but I tend to play rather peacefully any way.

And yes the benefits of the Great Library can be dubious, sometimes you won't get a single advance before it becomes obsolete. But it can also be very helpful if you're behind, in which case you might get a number of advances. It's kind of a 50/50 thing with that wonder.

	26-01-2002 13:00									#10
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I'll disagree with everyone.

Save the GL. Expand like mad. Then use it to build a FP. But this depends on how much land is available, how quickly you can advance the tech tree, and your style of play.

I am a builder, I would rather have the shield/income bonus from my cities than most other wonders. In the long run, its the best wonder of all. But, if you dont imagine you'll be expanding too much this early, then its not worth it, especially if you plan to conquer those around you soon, and might get another GL.

(note: you can have more than one GL)

As a conquerer, I'd wait til Art of War or Sistine Chapel. Once again, if you're going on a conquering spree and might generate another leader, an army is a good choice to remove those pesky first defenders.

	26-01-2002 15:03									#11
	Re: Re: Got my first leader, some advice please.. Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Willem If you decide on a wonder, don't bother with Great Lighthouse or Great Wall...

Lighthouse ain't quite useless. With it, you can send your galleys and grab all these crappy islands around your continent, that don't produce much, but make perfect unsinkable aircraft carriers and navy bases later. Many of them are visible only with a seagoing galley. Btw, if you play on archipelago, Lighthouse is a must.

I know, that's not much an issue for a builder (to prevent a complaint, I am a builder myself), but even as builder it's better to own them rather than a potential enemy does.

But Lighthouse ain't worth to be rushed with a leader though.

	26-01-2002 19:14									#12
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Thanks for all the replies!

I guess I'm leaning towards building a wonder. You see, the only land available to expand is a small bit of jungle, so I guess I'll have to expand by acquiring other civ's cities. Great Library gives 6 culture per turn and if I can build that in a city close to another civ, maybe I can culturally acquire a city or two. In addition, Great Library will allow me to focus on maximum cash production until it expires. The only reason why I considered the Lighthouse and the Great Wall was for the possibility of a Golden Age and the culture value they would add. The idea about holding it until FP becomes available was good.

I'm usually a peaceful player. Maybe I wouldn't be playing the Romans to their strengths if I didn't create an army/Heroic Epic and expand by acquiring cities militarily.

	26-01-2002 20:17									#13
	Re: Re: Re: Got my first leader, some advice please.. Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Lighthouse ain't quite useless. With it, you can send your galleys and grab all these crappy islands around your continent, that don't produce much, but make perfect unsinkable aircraft carriers and navy bases later. Many of them are visible only with a seagoing galley. Btw, if you play on archipelago, Lighthouse is a must. I know, that's not much an issue for a builder (to prevent a complaint, I am a builder myself), but even as builder it's better to own them rather than a potential enemy does. But Lighthouse ain't worth to be rushed with a leader though.

But once you get Astronomy, your Galley can end it's turn in a sea square anyway, so what's the point? Granted if you were on an isolated island, I can see the value, but since I play with continents anyway, it's not really worth the effort.

	27-01-2002 00:04									#14
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One reason to build the GL if not for the tech bonus.

In a thousand years, the culture it produces doubles. That is HUGE in the long run.

	27-01-2002 00:14									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Travathian One reason to build the GL if not for the tech bonus. In a thousand years, the culture it produces doubles. That is HUGE in the long run.

Yes, it's still one of my favourite Wonders, I usually try to go for it as quickly as possible. And I usually get it to. I'll put off Iron Working and work towards Literature as soon as I have my basic defensive units. I don't get nearly as many free techs as I did in the other civ games though.

	28-01-2002 20:04									#16
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quote: Yes, it's still one of my favourite Wonders, I usually try to go for it as quickly as possible. And I usually get it to. I'll put off Iron Working and work towards Literature as soon as I have my basic defensive units. I don't get nearly as many free techs as I did in the other civ games though.

I used to make a beeline for Literature, too, until I realized that doing so often means you could fall behind in Power relative to other civs. Since the amount of techs you own is a component of Power and your Power has a lot to do with your effectiveness in diplomacy, somtimes it's better to just research the tech that will take the shortest time to complete, regardless of what tech it is.

	28-01-2002 20:58									#17
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Got my first leader, some advice please.. Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Willem But once you get Astronomy, your Galley can end it's turn in a sea square anyway, so what's the point? Granted if you were on an isolated island, I can see the value, but since I play with continents anyway, it's not really worth the effort.

Once I get Astronomy (in the medieval era), I see all those islands already occupied by the civ that built the Great Lighthouse (in the ancient era), unless I am lucky and this civ is at another continent.

But I would never rush an ancient great wonder with a leader though. The first wonder I consider to be worth to be rushed is either the FP or the Sistine.

	28-01-2002 21:16									#18
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How about Hanging Garden?

	28-01-2002 21:47									#19
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 How about Hanging Garden?

Are helpful for the moment, but expire too soon. If you are in need for some happy faces (if you are short with luxuries), grab them, but I would not waste a leader for it.

	28-01-2002 23:51									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Feephi I used to make a beeline for Literature, too, until I realized that doing so often means you could fall behind in Power relative to other civs. Since the amount of techs you own is a component of Power and your Power has a lot to do with your effectiveness in diplomacy, somtimes it's better to just research the tech that will take the shortest time to complete, regardless of what tech it is.

Well I'm playing Americans, so it doeasn't really make any difference to me what I research. I can get all the techs of the Ancient Era just from the goody huts. In a lot of cases, it's quicker to just wait until I pick up the tech, rather than research it. So I don't really lose out on anything by going for Literature. In fact I'm usually way ahead by the Middle Ages.

	29-01-2002 01:14									#21
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You are always looking for happy faces at Monarch or higher levels are you not? Below that level, you can do anything you want as you really can't lose. I am not saying I would go for HG with a leader, it would depend on the level and the status. If that is the only wonder I can make at the time, I will use the leader. I do not put up FP until a later time as the first 10-12 cities do not need it and the next 6-8 are not strong enough to be sure to hold it and are usually captured cities. Once the second wave (6-8 group) are solid and will not be on the very front lines, then I put up the FP in one of them. This gives its benefits to the max number and puts pressure on the nearby AI cities. Remember I am at war most of the time. If I go 10 turns without a war I will probably start one, I do not want them getting stronger and I want to expand. At this time most land is claimed (std maps or smaller).

	29-01-2002 01:56									#22
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 You are always looking for happy faces at Monarch or higher levels are you not? Below that level, you can do anything you want as you really can't lose. I am not saying I would go for HG with a leader, it would depend on the level and the status. If that is the only wonder I can make at the time, I will use the leader...

Right, but only one content citizen per city (except for 3 in the city that built the wonder) just to see it getting obsolete with Steam power makes the usage of one of your scarce leaders a waste. Better beeline for Theology and rush the Sistine, that gives +3 content citizens in all cities with a cathedral (a must for both culture and contentment) and never expires.

	29-01-2002 03:30									#23
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It is not a waste, having a GL sitting on his butt is a waste. You can not get another leader if you already have one. It will be a long time from HG to Sistine. By the time Sistine is available I will have another leader, in fact I will likely not need one as I can build the wonder before them anyway by then. Prior to then I can not make a wonder before them (they often get it one turn before me). This is due to having everyone at war with me most of the time, I have now wore them down and they are now seeing that I am hard to beat, so they start in on each other. I am going for Mil Acad and taking cities away, the light are starting to go out for them. True it has been a bugger up till then and some very tough battles and close calls. But once I am in this part of the game, they are doomed. Note I am talking about Monarch/Emp games. Diety is different and not really any fun IMHO and below Regent is a freeroll (for all you poker players).

	29-01-2002 04:31									#24
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 It is not a waste, having a GL sitting on his butt is a waste. You can not get another leader if you already have one.

That's not true. We just had 2 GL's at the same time in our succession game (the French). Others reported to have more than 1 GL at the same time too.

EDIT: Things depend also on your style. While also playing Monarch games, I absolutely hate to be at war with everybody in the ancient era. I prefer builder style and make just short decisive wars in due times. I rarely get a leader out of them and if I do, it's just too valuable to be wasted. I'm aware, that a war monger probably gets a leader every 10th turn, but that's not the kind of games I enjoy.

	29-01-2002 05:44									#25
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Sure, you can get two, but the odds are so high against you that it's better to use them right away and lower the odds. I got three GL's in a recent war (never had more than one in play at a time). Would have gotten more, but I saved the last one and that put the odds so high that I didn't get another, although fighting more battles with elite units than I had done to that point.

	29-01-2002 06:53									#26
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I never seen a second leader generated while one was in a city (army does not count), since the patch and I have played dozens of games and not seen it, others say it is not possible post patch. If it does happen is rare, really rare and won't change the fact that you have leader worth all lot of shields doing nothing while you go up the tech tree. This could be all hell of a lot of turns. I would prefer to play builder ala civ2, but war is forced on you in civ3. You are not allowed to sit around.

	29-01-2002 18:02									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Allemand Sure, you can get two, but the odds are so high against you that it's better to use them right away and lower the odds. I got three GL's in a recent war (never had more than one in play at a time). Would have gotten more, but I saved the last one and that put the odds so high that I didn't get another, although fighting more battles with elite units than I had done to that point.

The odds of getting a leader out of an elite unit's victory are 1/16 normally, and 1/12 if you're either militaristic or have the Heroic Epic, regardless if there's an existing leader or not. There's no guarantee to get a leader even in 100 straight wins of elite units. Your example proves nothing.

	29-01-2002 20:32									#28
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Jeez, I'd really like to see two GLs in the game at once. Several people have vouched for it happening. It just seems odd that I haven't. I often play militaristic civs and getting GLs isn't unusual. I often have 12 or more elites attack each turn in long wars, I just haven't got two at the same time.

I'd like to have input on what people do with their GLs in the late game, when wonders don't take long to build and often are a little cheesy anyway (Longevity for example). Rush cathedrals in corrupt cities? I can build armies by then with the academy.

	29-01-2002 20:44									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph The odds of getting a leader out of an elite unit's victory are 1/16 normally, and 1/12 if you're either militaristic or have the Heroic Epic, regardless if there's an existing leader or not.

Not true. This has been proven to be wrong. Check out this thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=36623 . The test by Hurry (me) shows that a second leader was spawned only if the first one was used.

In other words, either you canīt have two leaders at the same time, or then the probability of getting a second one is much lower if you already have one active.

	29-01-2002 20:47									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Ironikinit I'd like to have input on what people do with their GLs in the late game, when wonders don't take long to build and often are a little cheesy anyway (Longevity for example). Rush cathedrals in corrupt cities? I can build armies by then with the academy.

In my current game I have got 16 leaders (Iroquis), sometimes two during the same turn, but never had two at once.

I rushed 3 ICBM:s with my latest leaders and blasted China out of the space race.