27-01-2002 00:39									#1
	Unusual rules of engagement Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I had a game last night that featured some unusual battles. Two of my submissive pactmates were at war. Many of their battles fought on my land. I couldn't call off Miriam because she had been paid to wage war with Santiago.

At the end of the game one of my submissives (the Spartans) sneak attacked me. Santiago's troops were withdrawn from my territory but not from tiles and bases we both inhabited outside my territory.

I realise a lot of you will have seen this crop up in a game before. But since an AI faction going from pact to vendetta in one turn is unusual if you keep your rep noble, I will summarize what I saw:

If someone is attacking a base or stack with both pactmates and vendetta'd factions inside, the attack can only proceed if the best defensive unit is from the vendetta'd faction. Incidental damage to the pacted faction has no diplomatic repercussions. In cases where a allied non-military unit (like a crawler or former) is wiped out when the stack is defeated, there will be no diplomatic repercussions.

Arty attacks against a allied faction, even if a enemy faction is not also present, seem to have no diplomatic repercussions.

Two or more units from warring factions can occupy the same base or tile. This can happen when the shared base or tile is outside the territory of both warring factions when vendetta is declared. You can either move your unit away or stay put. Moving away does not violate ZOC rules. You can move to an adjacent tile and fight the enemy from there.

Even if a faction has been paid to wage war with another faction, you can eventually get them to stop fighting - it just takes longer and several requests.

	28-01-2002 22:28									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Verrry interesting... I for one did not know any of that! I have once or twice seen units from two enemy factions in the same tile. Thanks for the info, esp that last bit. I had always assumed that once the AI was paid for vendetta, that was that. I don't think I ever tried more than twice to get a cease-fire between AI factions in that circumstance. Do you know if it applies to a faction that was eradicated and then freed through probe team action? I mean to say, will such a faction ever end a vendetta with the faction that destroyed them?

	29-01-2002 01:26									#3
	Remove this text

quote: and then freed through probe team action?

How does that work?

	29-01-2002 01:52									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

In SMAX only, just send a probe team to the headquarters of the faction that eradicated another faction. It will be a menu choice.

	29-01-2002 02:07									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by vitamin j ...Do you know if it applies to a faction that was eradicated and then freed through probe team action? I mean to say, will such a faction ever end a vendetta with the faction that destroyed them?

No, I don't know if this applies to a freed faction. I thought that freed factions were a cool idea, but I never seem to do it. So I haven't observed it for freed factions.

	29-01-2002 03:07									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I'll have to try it out next time I'm in that position. It might be a while though, MP is taking a lot of my time. Too much, maybe...

	30-01-2002 20:17									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by vitamin j Do you know if it applies to a faction that was eradicated and then freed through probe team action? I mean to say, will such a faction ever end a vendetta with the faction that destroyed them?

It does - once freed, the faction becomes the same as any other faction that becomes submissive, and just as likely to double-cross you!

	30-01-2002 23:49									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

That's nice to know. I haven't seen enemies in the same square before, rare for that to happend. So you could protect your ally against your another ally's attack placing some defensive units in to he's bases. I think you can always (eventually) find a diplomatic solution, more often it's just not worth the efforts.

Has anyone actually freed a faction leader with a Probe Team? I think it's a cool add-on but it seems to be less useful. I've never bothered because on larger maps factions are conquered later on in the game. And there's little reason to bring on a patheticly small submissive ally and take the risk of getting caught.

	31-01-2002 00:46									#9
	Tired of ads?

In my current SP game, I freed Roze from the Hive (took two attempts) and yes, it is a cool feature, but whether or not it is practical to do is up for debate. When I freed Roze I was playing on a standard map, she was eradicated early, and when I freed her she expanded to 3 bases and them stopped. Why? She had plenty of room to expand to the east ! Well, whatever..... Miriam, always a pain, knocked her down to 2 bases when I decided to come to her rescue. I knocked Miriam down on the power graph to the same level as Roze, giving Roze all of Miriam's bases as I conquered them, and turned over control of 2 air units and two ground units for each base I gave her, for defense/offense purposes. I also then gave her all of my tech, as she was in jail for about 150 years. Now, Roze and Miriam have been fighting ever since, maybe because I have always maintained a Vendetta with Miriam and Roze is my submissive. Those 2 women really have not yet gained or lost much ground, the same bases seem to exchange hands quite often, but what the hay, it keeps Miriam off my back and I expect Roze to become the dominant female eventually. Roze's research program is now up to date, and I am playing as the Drones. When situation calls for it, I use Power and Fundelmentaliasm social choices -- the downfall, of course, is my -4 research hit. Its works out though because Roze gives me the techs she aquires. The Spartans are also my submissive (I almost conquered her before 2150), and I am pacted with Diedre and Lal, mostly because there are scared #%#less of me, the Hive, and Miriam. Having 4 pacts has been quite fruitful, as they vote for me for Governor, and for my idea of doubling the commerce rates. With Santiago keeping the Hive busy, ad Roze keeping Miriam busy, and since I am surrounded by the Santiago and one side, and Roze on the other, I have been building nothing but facilities and have been out growing - out teching all ! (I'm shooting for Peace in our time, waiting for the Hive and Miriam to be erradicated)

Anyway, freeing someone can be an advantage to you, but is seems like they need lots of help getting started.

I thought we were not going to get into nation building !!

	31-01-2002 01:59									#10
	Suffering from ads?

Freeing Lal and giving him your bases so as to boost your vote total sounds like a good idea to me.

	31-01-2002 03:06									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I wouldn't trust Lal not to renage once he had his bases back.

	31-01-2002 10:33									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: I thought we were not going to get into nation building !!

Yeah, but that was kind of interesting. Your untouchable. I less often have the luxury of several submissives...I wonder that? Having alliances pays off especially well in elections, and it's often worth it for the doubled trade. Having alliances with small factions can be useful when you want to vote for Solar Shades, Unity Reactor Discovery, or whatever since everyone has one vote.

quote: I wouldn't trust Lal not to renage once he had his bases back.

I don't trust him at all. There's something wrong with him...