29-01-2002 06:42									#1
	I seek counsel Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I refused to pay tribute to Russia, and now they've declared war on me. I am not ready for this war but I'm beginning a massive military build up. The war has just began. I'm gainging 4 gold per turn and I have a little over a thousand in my treasury. My government is a republic. Should I keep this government? That way corruption is reduced and I'll get more money to pay for units. Or should I switch to a Monarchy? This way I won't have war weariness (this will be a long war). But if I go to a monarchy I'll lose more money to corruption. I will also be in an anarchy for a couple of turns and I can't afford to lose that much turns' worth of production (yes, it's that bad. The odds of the Russians wiping me out is about 3 to 1). What should I do? I also think it's dumb about war weariness in a democracy or republic. During world war 2 times were extremely rough in America. To conserve meat, hot dogs were replaced with victory sasauges which had less meat and more soybean filler. And to conserve oil, you could only drive in cars if you had important business. And the public still supported the war and there weren't any protests.

	29-01-2002 07:02									#2
	Support Apolyton

As to your war weariness fears, they MAY be unwarranted. If you have been a good caretaker of your civ, with a good foundation of happiness & culture enhancers, war weariness may be slow in coming. If you have a fair amount of luxuries tied with marketplaces, it may take dozens of turns before you have to do more than say, raise the entertainment tax by 10%.

The previous paragraph is based on my experience as a democracy, not a republic. Extended warfare where you have taken opposing civ's towns of course, will not help to make those towns productive ... 'and all that cultural conversion blab'.

My real recommendation: save the game with a descriptive file name. Try one course of action and see if the cost is too high -- maybe play it out to the end anyway. Then go back to the saved game, and try an alternate path.

Please do not try to confuse reality with Civ3 regarding war weariness. There are ample real-life examples of how ANYTHING in Civ3 is "unrealistic". However, I don't think that that detracts from the game.

	29-01-2002 08:23									#3
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Trying to relate war weariness to the US actually makes Civ3 look pretty realistic. Pearl Harbor was bombed in December 1941, and Japan surrendered in August 1945. People generally supported the war, and the Allies won. That's just under four years, and if you want to relate that to Civ3, it's two turns. Under Democracy, you will not suffer war weariness for a two-turn war.

The Vietnam War lasted from 1961-1975. That's 14 turns in Civ3... getting close to the time it takes for war weariness to kick in. People generally did not support the war, and the US essentially lost. This whole war weariness thing is starting to sound very realistic... Not that the US lost Vietnam because of a lack of support. Maybe because they had no idea why they were even there except for a misplaced sense of empathy for the recently declared Democratic Republic of Vietnam? OK, I'm not getting into that...

War is possibly the most realistic part of Civ3, and you would do well to take some lessons from history in that respect. If you don't have a standing army but a lot of other civs are mad at you, you better get an army fast and kiss everyone's ass until you're ready to fight (i.e. refusing demands when you have no army is a bad idea). When you start a war, have specific objectives and accomplish them quickly, constantly re-evaluating if you need to pull out and make peace. Taking over an entire country and occupying them for an indefinite amount of time isn't a very "Democratic" thing to do. You can support much longer wars with Communism ... but then again, I'm not sure how realistic that is. The USSR was in Afghanistan for 10 years without being able to take over the country, and the Soviet army was having at least as much of a morale problem as the US did in Vietnam.

ANYWAY...

If you're not religious, you probably don't want to switch back to Monarchy, but if you're really planning on a long war, you'll have to switch. The problem is that it's easy to hold people off with fortified defensive units, but that won't end the war fast. If you want Russia off your back quick, you'll have to build horsies and take over a couple cities.

	29-01-2002 10:01									#4
	Increase the size of your Attachments

War weariness won't be a big problem, I reckon. For starters, they declared war on you. That means you get a happiness boost for several turns, maybe more than the war lasts. Second, war weariness isn't so bad for republics.

Definately don't go for a revolution! It could last up to 7 turns, and you won't be able to produce anything. Well, if you're religious, maybe, but if you move quickly and demolish a Russkie stack or two or better yet take a city, they'll speak to your envoy.

	29-01-2002 18:35									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Tryy to make some alliances with other civs, especially any that border with Russia. You might find that you'll be left alone while the other two fight it out amongst themselves. If you can get two or three going against Russia, you can pretty much count on a short war against a small number of invading units. But don't switch governments until you feel that you're at least strong enough to hold back Catherine's attacks. Not being able to produce units while Anarchy is raging may cost you dearly.

	29-01-2002 18:52									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Try to defeat the first wave and attack yourself. In the early game, the AI is often willing to make peace (and will even pay you for it) if it lost 2-3 cities. This changes in later game, some civs even refuse to talk with you till they are completely destroyed.

Generally, tribute requests (though they intentionally sound insulting and inacceptable) are just warnings, that you are military weak. The AI can smell this for miles (and you can too, go and see your military advisor). You might in the future games understand them as warnings, pay the tribute the first 1-2 times, and use the time to build up your own military. You can make them pay you back later. Refuse to pay not for "human pride over a dumb AI", but only if you know you are strong enough to win in a war.

	29-01-2002 21:45									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

Don't change government to Monarchy now. That would definitely be a mistake, costing a lot for no gain.

If the war goes on and on and on and war weariness does start to be a problem (you'll notice because your people are unhappy), then you might want to consider changing governments to Monarchy. In general, though, Republic is pretty good for a reasonable length war -- especially if they declare war on you!

I would consider changing governments, though. If you are religious, I would consider it more strongly. It's just the Monarchy is the wrong choice (unless you have nationalism where drafting might be better under Monarchy. I've not investigated that very thoroughly yet). If you're horribly underdeveloped military and you don't have a lot of cash lying around, despotism to pop-rush military might well be the way to go. If you have money, just buy military that way.

Definitely don't switch to Monarchy, though, unless you really start noticing the war weariness. It might not come or will come later than you think. You might get peace reasonably quickly. Too much danger and no reward for switching now.

Arathorn

	29-01-2002 22:26									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

There is also anther thing you can do. If you have some techs that the other civs want you can get them to sign a miltary alliance with you against russia. If you dont have anything to trade, then is you have nationalism you can mmp with everyone and wait for the russians to attack you in your own terrority, then everyone will be forced to declare war on russia. If the A.I. has to fight a two front or maybe even a three front war, depending on how the map is layed out, then the units attacking will not be that many. And even if they send lots of units and take some of your cities, pretty soon their army will weakened form the world war they just started and you most likely be able to take the cities back.

I would not change governments now, like everyone else said it will be anywere form 5 to 7 turns before you get controll back of you cities, time which you could have used to build units. Also if you are in a republic war weariness is not that bad and easy to contain. War weariness only starts to occur if you have troops in the enemy civ's terrority for more than one turn or if they have units in your terrority for more than one turn. If the war is between a hated enemy of your civ, war weariness wont be that bad.

	30-01-2002 00:41									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Try to defeat the first wave and attack yourself. In the early game, the AI is often willing to make peace (and will even pay you for it) if it lost 2-3 cities. This changes in later game, some civs even refuse to talk with you till they are completely destroyed.

Good point. Sometimes the best defence is a good offence. Take a small frontier city or two, and they might be knocking on your door soon after hoping to make peace.

	30-01-2002 04:08									#10
	Re: I seek counsel Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Here are a few ideas to try:

1. Get friends! There are probably other Civilizations itching to war with Russia. Pay them off with gold, technology, resources, alliances against their enemies, even workers. You have to be careful with any of these as they all have potential consequences, but if you get enough people attacking Russia, it will be like that thing in Lord of the Flies, where all the kids jumped the wild pig...

2. Get buffed! Buy some military units, upgrade others. In my experience, the AI respects military might, and being mighty will make it easier to get peace. If you have to give ground to get enough time to update and expand your military, do it. The AI is predictable: If you get a large enough advantage to start gaining ground on it, it will never stop you.

3. Don't Worry. Stay a Republic. The war weariness is not likely to be crippling, unless you've done a poor job of building your civilization. If that's the case, consider this game a learning experience.

4. Be happy. Keep a close watch on your happiness. Marketplaces and luxuries combined are a powerful happiness tool. Together, they can pacify up to 20 people, if I am not mistaken! Rush build stuff where you need it, and you should be OK.

5. The worst is almost over. The AI usually attacks you with all of whatever it has handy right away. Beat that first wave up and it's all logistics and tactics.

	30-01-2002 08:32									#11
	more info Suffering from ads?

The ideas I'm getting are great. Especially the one who wrote the reply right before this one. But I have no luxury or strategic resources, no land to build upon, and I can't get anyone to declare war on Russia. I offered the Iroquois (my close friends who are the only civ besides Russia to border me, and they border Russia also) a ton of stuff, but they refused. I am a little behind on technology (each civ is 1-3 techs ahead), so I can't trade that. I offered the Iroquois more than 1000 gold and a population 8 city for military alliance vs. the Russians, but they though it was a ridiculous trade. But thanks to everyone with their helpful analysis'.

	30-01-2002 15:23									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Don't bother with guessing what to offer. Just ask, what they would need for an alliance, and if they answer "It can't be done!", "Regrettable we don't see an opportunity..." or similar, there's usually nothing to do.

Guess you have to fight the war alone. Put all free forces you have to the city they are approaching to (you built roads, did you?). When they arrive at an adjacent square, attack them with everything you have in the city. They will lose some units, and some will be seriously injured and leave your culture border to heal. The remaining forces may be not strong enough to take the city. You won time. Meanwhile build units (preferably fast attacking, like horsemen) in all other cities. Don't hesitate to switch from infrastructure buildings to units, but try not to lose too much shields. Don't send them in the attacked city immediately (they would be killed one-by-one), but stack them up nearby. If you lose 1-2 cities, oh well, you will take them back or rebuild later.

Once you have a sufficient force, attack! Move the war to the AI's territory. Take about 2 cities and send some defenders (like spearmen) deep into your enemy's heartland and let them pillage everything he built in centuries. Cut his strategical resources (iron, horses) by pillaging roads. Hurt him where ever you can. Then ask for peace and demand all his gold, gold per turn, techs, workers and may be even 1-2 cities. Bet he'll give you all, just to get rid of you.

	30-01-2002 22:12									#13
	It can't be done Suffering from ads?

Actually, this is often false. They'll say "It can't be done" and it *can* be done, often. It just takes some work.

Before negotiating (or during negotiations, by using the trick to pause it), go to your main advisor (F1) and drop your science and luxury sliders to zero, giving you as much gpt as possible. The AI knows how much gpt you get and will let that information affect their negotiations.

After negotiating, you can go back and put science at a reasonable rate, even incurring a loss if you think it's necessary.

Another trick that sometimes works is trading away your last of a luxury item (it will still show up with zero available). The AI never asks for your last luxury and will never trade their last one away, but you can. Sometimes, it makes sense to do so.

As a final note, don't offer cities. After the patch, an AI will never give ANYTHING to get a city, simply because too many exploits were available built around selling cities.

Arathorn

	30-01-2002 22:17									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yes, that's true, I didn't think of it.

But it doesn't concern me anyway, as I keep my luxury slider at 0 and my science slider at 10% almost the whole ancient period, to maximize money (in ancient time that's better than to waste it for science). Once I have marketplaces, the Republic and trade techs, I increase the science slider, but have always enough income left for trades etc.

But it wasn't the point of my posting anyway.

	31-01-2002 08:25									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

Never act defensively! In a war, if the enemy is coming at your cities, you better have attacking units such as horsemen or something to attack them first. If they are actually "attacking" one of your cities, you have already lost too much.

	31-01-2002 19:50									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Don't make alliances!! Unless you're desperate and have little chance of winning, don't do it. It limits your options and if you make a seperate peace before the alliance runs out, the civ with whom you had the alliance will hate you.

	31-01-2002 19:56									#17
	Get a bigger avatar today!

As long as you do not attack one of his city or one of his units on his territory, you have nothing to fear from war weariness, so don't switch, stay in Republic.
If you expect the war to be long, try to find an ally. The best is the one on the opposite side of your ennemy, he will have to fight on 2 fronts. Write down the year of the alliance, because you will not be able to make peace with your ennemy within the 20 turns without consequences on your alliance.
Usually, your ennemy will find allies, find again yourself allies against them so you don't have to care about those. One for one is usually enough. But don't wait for that, or your ennemy will be able to ally the whole world against you. Focus on 1 ennemy at the time.

The odds are against you, so try to find something to your advantage: terrain.
Let him come on your territory. On your territory, you will have the benefit from roads, he not, you will be able to heal, he not.
All your moves should be dictated by the 'allow the wounded to retreat' motto. Attack only with mobile units that are able to move (retreat) after combat.
His dangerous units are the mobile units, so go for them first.
This (go first) should not be a big deal as they will usually come first, before his infantry. But, this process is the bloody one for your own mobile units, so think to that when choosing what new units to build.
Once he has no more mobile units, your mobiles should be safe.
Infantry units are slower and take even the time to destroy improvements. Use this time to move your mobile units to the hot points, but also to move defenders according to threats. Small stack are not a big problem, they will not attack, just destroy your roads. But, eventually, a big dangerous infantry stack will come. Try to weak it with your mobiles. If it nears some city, bring more defense. Usually, 3 strong defenders (non-mobile), will dissuade him to attack. He will instead try to go for another city. You may play the game of "3 defenders here, 3 defenders there", and he may change his mind each turn. Continue to harras him with your mobile units until he is dead.

If you are sure a city will fall, evacuate it, save your defenders to strengthen other cities and if it is not on your future counter-attack path, you may consider giving it to some neutral power (*not* to your ally: the city is empty!!!). Either, he will attack this neutral - you win an ally -, or he will not benefit from the roads - you win time.

After a while, the tide of ennemy will weaken, and he may even ask for peace. It is up to you to accept or refuse. I usually refuse, because I know he is weak. His own cities are now poorly defended and I usualy conquer him in less than 12 turns.

War weariness you said? What is it? Never heard that?

BTW: have you a saved game of this. I would be interrested.