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Killjoy
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somewhere in time...
Jul 2000
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by MattHiggs
Macs, they are only good for art and rendering. |
Firstly, rendering is a process used in creating art.
Secondly, whether you are aware of it or not, macs are firmly entrenched throughout the entire communications spectrum. Almost every printed advertisement, book, billboard, CD booket, flyer, newspaper, POP, packaging, magazine, and a large chunk of the corporate web sites you visit were, and are, created using a Mac.
They are the backbone of the design industry (print and digital). Most of the creative and production work done, across this continent, for print advertising, book and magazine publishing, and a large chunk of corporate web site design and development is done on Macs. That's a basic fact, not wishful thinking.
Last edited by Killjoy on 13-02-2002 at 04:47
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Admiral
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of the peace and coexistance movement
Feb 2001
time: 00:17
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To any of you PC trolls who follow Wiglaf into these domains:
Even if you actually have numbers that favor PCs (doubtful, maybe, but possible), what significance do they have. For me, most of the advantages to Macs are asthetic. I've a few PCs, and most of them had major or minor operational difficulties. My MacOSX G4, on the other hand, has crashed once in the 5 months since i have had OSX. THis is just a personal preference, but i also find that the MacOS just looks better than Windows.
As to the Mac purchases going down, sure they went down, but they've gone up. The Mac is here to stay, even if it does stay at the fringe (likely), for that is the nature of the market. For the sake of the general populice, a world where there is only one OS would not be a good thing at all, Microsoft is bad enough as it is.
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by FlameFlash
Because there are more people in the world than there were five years ago (think world census.)
Because the older iMacs had become dull and boring.
Because OS X didn't have as many great software peices and OS 9.x was getting old and grizzly. |
The iMac was released during the 5 year period where the huge drop occured.
quote:
And I don't hear you refuting the fact that without Macs we'd still be using DOS.  |
I couldn't believe you were actually being serious. Seriously though, the argument is hogwash. A graphical interface is an evolutionary step in computers, everyone would get to it sooner or later. Apple didn't invent the graphical interface either, Xerox did. That doesn't mean if it wasn't for Xerox everyone would be using command-line still...
quote:
My MacOSX G4, on the other hand, has crashed once in the 5 months since i have had OSX. THis is just a personal preference, but i also find that the MacOS just looks better than Windows. |
Sorry, but this whole argument has gone down the drain since XP's release. My XP hasn't crashed once in the past 5 months.
Further, I can change Windows to how I want it to look and function using the XML-based skinning. Mine looks nothing like how it ships. 
There are even Aqua clones for XP themes, but Apple keeps making sites take them down. But you can still find 'em.
Macs will always be around, because their marketing department has some really intelligent people in there. They manage to convinced most of the end users they're using the greatest thing since sliced bread, superior to what everyone else is using, even though the technology in it is seriously about 2-4 years behind the PC.
quote:
Asher, I'll get some hard data for you tomorrow if no one else does, but it's a generally accepted fact that macs are used widely in the publishing and art industries nowadays. |
That's a pretty old cliche. Many have switched from what I've heard, particularly since Windows 2000 and XP have come out and the massive speeds you can get on the PCs for a cheap price. Of course, I'm also talking out of my ass right now because I don't have any figures either.
BTW, I'll be the first person in line for a G5 TiBook. 
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FlameFlash
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Minnesota, USA
Dec 2001
time: 23:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
I couldn't believe you were actually being serious. Seriously though, the argument is hogwash. A graphical interface is an evolutionary step in computers, everyone would get to it sooner or later. Apple didn't invent the graphical interface either, Xerox did. That doesn't mean if it wasn't for Xerox everyone would be using command-line still... |
Yeah yeah, Apple stole GUI from Xerox... Micro$oft stole GUI from Mac... did you know there was even a Commadore brand computer with GUI and 3.5 floppy disks that came out just about/before/after (not sure) Mac came out... very good system, but talk about a lack of user base... Amiga I think was the name.
But then again, the arguement isn't "hogwash." Was Xerox planning to use its GUI for computers? I don't think so... it was planning on doing using it for what it does best: copy machines. Certainly that means that Micro$oft would have copied off of them instead of Macs... but probably much later since nobody else was willing to test it.
quote:
Sorry, but this whole argument has gone down the drain since XP's release. My XP hasn't crashed once in the past 5 months.
Further, I can change Windows to how I want it to look and function using the XML-based skinning. Mine looks nothing like how it ships.
There are even Aqua clones for XP themes, but Apple keeps making sites take them down. But you can still find 'em. |
Okay, so neither of them crashes...  Big deal.
quote:
Macs will always be around, because their marketing department has some really intelligent people in there. They manage to convinced most of the end users they're using the greatest thing since sliced bread, superior to what everyone else is using, even though the technology in it is seriously about 2-4 years behind the PC.
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Isn't it better than sliced bread? I always thought so... but then I like to slice my own bread  Anyway though I think the best point was from Admiral:
quote:
Originally posted by Admiral
Even if you actually have numbers that favor PCs (doubtful, maybe, but possible), what significance do they have. For me, most of the advantages to Macs are asthetic. I've a few PCs, and most of them had major or minor operational difficulties. My MacOSX G4, on the other hand, has crashed once in the 5 months since i have had OSX. THis is just a personal preference, but i also find that the MacOS just looks better than Windows.
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If any of you have "enjoyed"  philosophy in college (currently taking it) there's something called a relativist that we all fall under (correct me if I totally screw up the definition): what is right for the person, is right for the person, even if it viewed by others as wrong.
Just because I like Macs and Asher prefers PCs and each of us trying to convince the other that the other is at fault is like saying person A likes the color green and person B likes the color blue.
Who's right? Isn't it a fact that both people are right in their own minds? How are we to dictate simple personal preferance (even with data and guesses like "well, Macs are 2-4 years behind technology wise." I don't care. I like my Macs, and by Steve Jobs, you're not going to convince me to switch to the dark side of the force.
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by FlameFlash
Mighten the point of that statement have been simply that without Macs, DOS would still be around because Xerox GUI wasn't as good... then Micro$oft jumped in once GUI had been tested by the market and liked? So the Micro$oft ran with the idea only AFTER it was proven that the public liked GUI? Certainly if Apple hadn't hopped in and Xerox had run with it things would be different now... but that's how it all turned out, and Killjoy was also being humorous (at least to Mac users.) |
The PC market is inherently different from Apple's market. Apple can force-feed technologies down people's throats because they have complete control over the hardware and software people used. In the PC, it doesn't work like that.
Hardware back in the early days wasn't nearly fast enough to run an effective GUI, which is why everyone except Apple stayed out of it until the hardware could run fast enough to support a GUI. Have you ever used a Lisa? Honestly I much prefered the command line to that.
People are just grossly mistaken if they seriously believe people would still be using command lines if it wasn't for Apple. Apple just loves to jump the gun on technologies everyone else is already looking at, but waiting a bit. Then they wave around a flag claiming how innovative they are.
Apple's the only mainstream company that can force that. PCs can't. Call it innovation or call it experimentation. I think it's experimentation, and a lot of time it doesn't please me.
Others don't mind it, which is why they use Macs. I prefer PCs as desktop systems because I'm a control freak, and I have to upgrade, change, and modify all of my components. For laptops I care far less, which is why I'm quite fond of the iBooks and TiBooks and plan to get a G5 TiBook when they come out (although it'll run Linux, not OS X).
Apple uses you a guinea pigs in the market. They're not innovative, just push technologies into the mainstream first, mostly before they're ready.
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FlameFlash
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Minnesota, USA
Dec 2001
time: 23:17
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Thanks for confirming that one, Killjoy...
Asher, I give up every time I even somewhat try to clarify a point... especially that it might have been a joke, it seems to get carried to the next level... I'd hoped that my last comment would have simply let the discussion die down, nobody has done any convincing on either side, call Apple doing whatever it does whatever you want, be your control freak regarding towers... though I'll point out that I've installed a TVcard into my tower and plan to soon take out the 100MB zip to put in a SuperDrive DVD (not the 120 floppies) so whoever says that you can't customize a Mac is far from that point (I could also swap out my AGP card just like a Windows user, if for some unknown reason I actually wanted to.) Not to mention the fact that I could always just pop out my processor, drop in another ZIF one into the socket, and run...
 great... now I'll probably get another long response...
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Wiglaf
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Cambridge
Dec 2000
time: 23:17
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quote:
That was exactly my point. People were making a big deal about it for OS X... |
XP is extremely unstable. Granted, an improvement over 98 and especially 95, but it's still not quite mac quality.
Example: I'm posting on poly. Quick freeze, no advance warning. Ctrl Alt Delete (aka task manager) non responsive. Waited four minutes, pressed the power button. (I know it might not be terribly relevant but that didn't work either, ended up pulling the plug) Upon restart I hear of a "Serious error" that "has [somehow] been fixed by the system." Naturally I get a 'tell MS' report to send, but it would do be no good, it just goes to give tips for future MS products and screw with my privacy at the same time. There would be no return email, at least one wasn't mentioned anywhere on the form they wanted me to ship off.
Second example, one you've heard before. Flight Sim 2002 select a flight. Worked three times before (works now as well, for the most part), suddenly froze up. Recently the screen just blacked out entirely. The compatability mode hit XP hard as well with Gettysburg (before the v3 patch anyway). Although it wasn't a terribly lethal crash, it was a very ridiculous one to have to deal with at the same time.
So, protected memory be damned, how exactly do I get out of a crash in XP if the task manager, and indeed the entire keyboard, is unavailable? Do tell.
quote:
Apple uses you a guinea pigs in the market. They're not innovative, just push technologies into the mainstream first, mostly before they're ready. |
When has apple released anything before it was "ready"? Please explain.
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wiglaf
XP is extremely unstable. Granted, an improvement over 98 and especially 95, but it's still not quite mac quality. |
What can I say but PEBKAC (Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair). I've known no one except you to have problems like that, so I'm finding it really hard to believe. Sorry bud.
quote:
When has apple released anything before it was "ready"? Please explain. |
The GUI: The Lisa was way too slow to handle that.
USB: Apple tried to force-feed USB onto the market before any real devices were out for it.
AirPort: Insecure, slow wireless networking.
etc
quote:
You got me on the motherboard...
uh... isn't the processor the CPU? ZIF cards... pull one out, drop one in... |
Where do you buy G4 processors to upgrade? Like say I want to upgrade my computer from a G4 500 to an 866, how would I go about doing that?
quote:
Changing case? It can be done! My LAN party going cousin actually was wanting to swap me cases a while back (he wanted handles.) |
My point was changing to a case that provided more expansion room and whatnot. Like buying a PC case that has space for four hard drives, etc. I've not seen any Mac cases that let you do that kind of stuff.
quote:
Why would any Mac user in their right mind want to change the case? |
Because there are cases that are essentially noiseproof, if you cared about that. More expansion room for IDE drives. More room for over-sized PCI/AGP cards (think Voodoo2 size...ow). And most importantly: ability to change motherboards.
quote:
Huge markup? RAM is cheap... my CD burner cost just as much as a PC user... same with the TV card... buy any ATA HD and drop it in, just need to reformat the sucker... not sure what you're getting at on that one I guess. |
The reason those prices are so cheap is because they're compatible with PC parts.
Try finding an affordable G4 chip, Apple monitor, etc. Apple/Motorolla/IBM places a huge markup on those. The G4 chip is estimated to cost about $20-30 to make these days, but you wouldn't think that by the huge prices you pay for those G4 computers. By contrast, the new Pentium 4s cost $50 to make and they're still cheaper to the consumer.
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bradman
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Westlake Interactive, Civ3 Mac Programmer
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Chandler, AZ, USA
Mar 2000
time: 22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
I've known no one except you to have problems like that, so I'm finding it really hard to believe. Sorry bud. |
There are two other explanations: you don't know many people who use XP or you don't know many people. Personally, I find both of those much easier to believe.
quote:
The GUI: The Lisa was way too slow to handle that.
USB: Apple tried to force-feed USB onto the market before any real devices were out for it.
AirPort: Insecure, slow wireless networking.
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Saying the Lisa was way too slow is a very subjective statement. I've used one before, and the overall speed of the system was in no way a hindrance. Why do you say otherwise?
As for USB, who got force-fed there? Those early USB-equipped Macs also shipped with ADB, so it's not like you were taking a gamble. What's more, within a year, the market was flooded with USB devices of all kinds. USB 2.0, on the other hand, is an innovation that didn't start with Apple, and look how badly it's been botched.
And your point with Airport is pretty foolish, given that it's a consumer-level networking product. For what it is, you're very obviously not going to get government-grade security and faster-than-ethernet speeds, but you get enough to have a private, encrypted network at low-end ethernet speeds.
What you seem to be saying is, "I'm afraid of change, and whoever introduces change is an idiot until everyone else accepts it." That's not a healthy philosophy to have, but it does explain why you're always here tearing Mac users down instead of doing something more productive with your time.
Brad
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by bradman
There are two other explanations: you don't know many people who use XP or you don't know many people. Personally, I find both of those much easier to believe. |
Good job on the Mac port, by the way. Top notch stuff. 
Go ahead and ask in the Apolyton Off-Topic people's experiences with Windows XP. The only person on Apolyton with stability problems is Wiglaf. The other dissastisfied user is faded glory, who is pissed off because NT doesn't play his 1992 DOS games.
quote:
Saying the Lisa was way too slow is a very subjective statement. I've used one before, and the overall speed of the system was in no way a hindrance. Why do you say otherwise? |
You couldn't really run more than two windows, at best, of anything anyway due to memory issues. The redraw speeds was pitifully slow, the "graphical" part was more amateurish than functional. It just gave me a bad experience. Maybe I'm jaded with my wonderful GUIs of today.
quote:
As for USB, who got force-fed there? Those early USB-equipped Macs also shipped with ADB, so it's not like you were taking a gamble. What's more, within a year, the market was flooded with USB devices of all kinds. USB 2.0, on the other hand, is an innovation that didn't start with Apple, and look how badly it's been botched. |
Look how badly USB 2.0 is? Motherboard support for USB 2.0 launches in a few weeks, that's why it hasn't caught on (duh?). It's backwards compatible with USB 1.0 and 1.1, so it's replacing those. IIRC, Maxtor announced USB2 external hard drives first, then FireWire second.
quote:
And your point with Airport is pretty foolish, given that it's a consumer-level networking product. For what it is, you're very obviously not going to get government-grade security and faster-than-ethernet speeds, but you get enough to have a private, encrypted network at low-end ethernet speeds. |
Airport is practically useless, even for the consumers. Its range is pathetic, its speed is pathetic, its security is nonexistant. That's why it hasn't exactly caught on.
quote:
What you seem to be saying is, "I'm afraid of change, and whoever introduces change is an idiot until everyone else accepts it." That's not a healthy philosophy to have, but it does explain why you're always here tearing Mac users down instead of doing something more productive with your time. |
No, what I'm saying is I love change, but every change comes when it's ready.
I never said anything about idiots, nor did I say anything about how I'm being afraid of changes, so I'd ask if you keep your lackluster analysis to a minimum. It doesn't suit you.
I'm not tearing Mac users down, I'm tearing down "facts" presented by Mac users as a way of feeding his or her superiority complex about his machine, when that's not really the case.
What I do ask is why you make judgement on me "tearing down Mac users" when you're in here "tearing down PC users". Pot...kettle...black, etc.
Shouldn't you be porting Max Payne?
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29-01-2002 08:22
Why would any Mac user in their right mind want to change the case?
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