30-01-2002 03:48									#31
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In DC, the attacks were devastating. A whole airport shut down completely for months, only to be reopened for partial traffic. This airport does $10-15 billion in business each year and is a major through point for US Air's DC<->NYC shuttle. Hotels and cabbies were crippled for at least a month afterward.

After the attack, downtown DC was shut down. Each workday lost means about $1 billion.

While not strictly 9/11-related, it appears to me that the anthrax scare was a sympathy play. The entire DC mail delivery system was screwed up for a couple of months. Weeks went by with no mail delivered.

DC will have spent several hundreds of millions of dollars extra on security post-9/11.

All of this sucks hard. I would be happy to get out of this with only a $100 billion scratch. But it doesn't look like that would anywhere near cover it.

	30-01-2002 03:58									#32
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants Yeah, sort of like the way the world ignored that whole Nazi thing that happend way back when, what was it that happend again...?

You are comparing the WTC to the Holocaust?????

****ing moron!

	30-01-2002 04:03									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh You are comparing the WTC to the Holocaust????? ****ing moron!

I realize that the comparison is fallacious. After all, Europeans at the time actually cared about the 9/11 attacks.

	30-01-2002 04:14									#34
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants Yeah, sort of like the way the world ignored that whole Nazi thing that happend way back when, what was it that happend again...? Or those damnable soccer holligans who did what? And what of that silly Berlin Wall episode, I can't quite remember, lets see... Not to mention that incident in the former Chech Repulic that the world largely ignored. Do all Euros feel this sorry for themselves? "quite so pulicised", HA!

Oh dear, silly illerate learnt to type but not to develop a brain. Does the Average American know who the current French president is? German chancellor? Do you honestly think the attacks would have been quite so much coverage had the attacks been in Cologne?

	30-01-2002 04:20									#35
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Does the Average American know who the current French president is?

Do you know who the President Pro Tempore of the US Senate is?

Why should we care who holds such a position of such little power within his own government?

quote: German chancellor?

Gerhard Schroder.

quote: Do you honestly think the attacks would have been quite so much coverage had the attacks been in Cologne?

Why wouldn't they be?

	30-01-2002 04:24									#36
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quote: Does the Average American know who the current French president is? German chancellor? Do you honestly think the attacks would have been quite so much coverage had the attacks been in Cologne?

Chirac, Schroeder, and if it hit the Reichstag (the new one) in Berlin, perhaps it would have.

	30-01-2002 04:28									#37
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*claps at the clever people who answered my rhetorical question, missing the point in that they are not average Americans*

	30-01-2002 04:37									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld In the grand scheme of things, everything is insignificant.

*Butterfly in Equador flaps its wings*

*Africa sinks into the ocean*

	30-01-2002 04:42									#39
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quote: Originally posted by rah "As for the claim that the attack cost over 100 billion? Thats just a load of BS, the airlines etc where all doing horrible before 9/11 with a few of the major ones already having declared bankruptcy. Most industries where just looking for a bailout" We will never know the total cost. The ripple effect in the US was quite great. I went to Las Vegas in early November. We discussed the effect with quite a few dealers during the endless hours we spent at the tables. Most of them had only been called in for 3 days or less a week after 9/11. (the norm prior was 4-6 days a week) The hotel we were staying at was operating at less than 50% capacity when the norm is closer to 85%. This was a full two months after and one of their normal peaks. People were saying it was just starting to turn back up again. A lot of the people that canceled or didn't book were foreigners. That money is never going to be recooped. If Vegas ran at 66% of the norm for two months the cost was estimated at over 1 billion dollars. Most Companies cancel all business travel. And some still haven't resumed. The impact on Hotels, Resturants, Convention centers, taxis/limos, hookers, etc. This doesn't even consider those companies that were literally destroyed in the collapse. The infrastructure damage, The cost of the cleanup. The overtime hours paid to workers. The ripples keep spreading farther. So even though the I agree that the airlines were already in trouble, this just made things worse. I really don't think 100 billion was an Exaggeration and in the long run may be kinda low. I guess you have to live here and actually open your eyes to see just how much was impacted from a monetary standpoint. RAH

ya ya. I live across the border barely.. Anyways i still think those numbers are meaningless. how many people do you know that spend every dime they have as soon as they get a paycheque? So they where prevented from spending money for a few days, or they shifted thier spending habits. There was a big cry here in BC that tourism revenue was going to be waaaay down, turned out it plunged in september, but still ended up 20% for the year with record numbers in november, december etc. Point is people started traveling closer to home, and used the money they would normally spend on travel to other things. The problem with economics is i can make any old pie chart i want, some cenus data and then get infront of a camera and make millions of "sheep" believe what i say. I don't think anyone realizes just how much 100 billion is. Thats $500US for every man women and child living in the states. Now add in the supposid cost for the war (another 100 billion). That makes the loss $1000 US for every man women and child. (assuming the pop is 200 million) now lets say one in 4 people actually work thats an average of $4000 US per working tax payer... The average american salary is $20,000.... uhm those numbers being thrown around just don't add up.

	30-01-2002 04:43									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui and if it hit the Reichstag

You mean they're an empire again?!

BUNDEStag, Imran, BUNDEStag...

	30-01-2002 05:15									#41
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quote: Originally posted by markusf I don't think anyone realizes just how much 100 billion is. Thats $500US for every man women and child living in the states. Now add in the supposid cost for the war (another 100 billion). That makes the loss $1000 US for every man women and child. (assuming the pop is 200 million) now lets say one in 4 people actually work thats an average of $4000 US per working tax payer... The average american salary is $20,000.... uhm those numbers being thrown around just don't add up.

Your formula doesn't consider damage to existing structures... or tax money spent during the stall period after the attacks.

	30-01-2002 05:34									#43
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marcusf: is this a word question? ~3/4 of Americans work, so that $200 billion (or whatever) is about $1,000/working person.

Yes, I can see how it would be $1,000/working person over the period of a couple of years.

"The average american salary is $20,000"

Don't know where you get this figure.

	30-01-2002 05:35									#44
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quote: Originally posted by poison_flower Your formula doesn't consider damage to existing structures... or tax money spent during the stall period after the attacks.

ya i know it gets even crazier then, which makes me think most of those numbers are super fake.. Do people really believe that destroying 2 buildings in the states would cost 50% of the earnings of the average working family in the US ? So if terrorists blow up 30 buildings the US goes bankrupt ???? Canadas economy is 80% cross border trade with the US... When there where big handouts in the US there where none in canada, even though it had the exact same effect here. I think the vast majority of these "estimates" etc are just numbers being used to mask the recession which started close to a year ago.

If some terrorist group blew up the CN tower in canada and we use the numbers tossed around in the states canada's national debt would nearly double and canada's credit rating would be gone and it would basically become a 2-3rd world country.

	30-01-2002 05:44									#45
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"would cost 50% of the earnings of the average working family in the US ?"

Where do you find these figures, you ditz!

	30-01-2002 06:03									#46
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quote: Originally posted by DanS marcusf: is this a word question? ~3/4 of Americans work, so that $200 billion (or whatever) is about $1,000/working person. Yes, I can see how it would be $1,000/working person over the period of a couple of years. "The average american salary is $20,000" Don't know where you get this figure.

The average American’s annual salary is $26,000
- 1998 U.S. Department of Labor survey -


Of course this survey didn't take into account illegal immigrants working in california etc. There was a site here before that listed average salaries for all countries and the US was one of the lowest in the western world.. After you included living expenses. Of course most uneducated americans seem to think everyone living in the US is rich

	30-01-2002 06:07									#47
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "would cost 50% of the earnings of the average working family in the US ?" Where do you find these figures, you ditz!

average income in the states is 20,000 assuming 1 person in the family works.. if the "war" costs 100 billion, 100 billion that was given as a figure for rebuilding, another 130 billion for airports, infustructure damnge etc etc lets say that comes out to a max of $10,000 US per person. Thats half of what the average working familly makes in the states... Please try to learn something about your own country before you try and argue. You add up all those numbers and you realize the media is just feeding you a load of bs..

	30-01-2002 06:17									#48
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quote: Originally posted by markusf average income in the states is 20,000 assuming 1 person in the family works.. if the "war" costs 100 billion, 100 billion that was given as a figure for rebuilding, another 130 billion for airports, infustructure damnge etc etc lets say that comes out to a max of $10,000 US per person. Thats half of what the average working familly makes in the states... Please try to learn something about your own country before you try and argue. You add up all those numbers and you realize the media is just feeding you a load of bs..

One person works?

	30-01-2002 06:23									#49
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Anyone going to argue that the average salary in the states is 20,100 US ?

http://www.magma.ca/~jagwar/cdnGuid...ain/node36.html

	30-01-2002 06:47									#50
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I swear they should retroactively fail you in your math classes.

Long story short, $200 billion ($100 billion war prosecution; $100 billion directly for 9/11) is about 2% of annual GDP.

Median household income (what you're confusing for an "average") is $42,000. Considering that there are over 100 million households in the US, an "average" household would pay about $2,000, or less that 5% of income.

If this were to have happened in Canada, times all the above burden by about 13.

	30-01-2002 07:00									#51
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Average American Income is around 38,000-50,000.

Why do people like you marcus, try to paint us all in with the "Stupid and Ignorant" brush.

Your obvouisly the only ignorant person here. If you honestly believe that most americans are stupid...I challenge you to get up off your lazy troll ass and come over here. You will be very suprised actually..


This is what I know about EU heads of state,
1)Blair
2)Gerhard
3)Berlusconi


ahh thats it. I dont live there, I dont watch BBC.....How would I know this stuff?

But who really cares? They didnt teach us about the EU 15 years ago in school And if I had the time (and interest) to look that crap up, I would.. Buts its dull, boring, and would be a massive waste of time.

Besides, its quite insignificant you know. Like a quiet voice in the swamp.

	30-01-2002 07:39									#52
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quote: Originally posted by El Awrence You mean they're an empire again?! BUNDEStag, Imran, BUNDEStag...

They should bring back the Reichstag... those were fun times .

	30-01-2002 08:10									#53
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Average American Income is around 38,000-50,000. Why do people like you marcus, try to paint us all in with the "Stupid and Ignorant" brush. Your obvouisly the only ignorant person here. If you honestly believe that most americans are stupid...I challenge you to get up off your lazy troll ass and come over here. You will be very suprised actually.. This is what I know about EU heads of state, 1)Blair 2)Gerhard 3)Berlusconi ahh thats it. I dont live there, I dont watch BBC.....How would I know this stuff? But who really cares? They didnt teach us about the EU 15 years ago in school And if I had the time (and interest) to look that crap up, I would.. Buts its dull, boring, and would be a massive waste of time. Besides, its quite insignificant you know. Like a quiet voice in the swamp.

Actually what faded is trying to say is that many Americans are busy trying to feed their kids, make the morgage payment, make the car payment, pay all the other bills and still have a little left over to relax just a little bit before going to work the next day. So you will have to excuss most of the country for only paying attention to what immediately affects them. Would it be nice to have most people aware of the causes of resentment towards Americans? Yeah it would. But people like my mom had more immediate concerns when I was growing up than complex issues behind the Iran Hostage crisis, like putting food on the table and filling the car up with gas. If you have the time and ability to keep up with foreign events, then good for you. But don't expect others to have the same free time.

	30-01-2002 08:23									#54
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Hehe, all money is "made". Haha, haha, ooooh, that kills me. Fails to take into account (among other things), companies (they usually pull in a little mopre than the wages of all the workers in the company, just a little), Stock Market (hey, you don't actually "work" for the money), and money that flows on from other countries, that the US taxes.

Hey, what's after trillions? Quadillions?

	30-01-2002 09:43									#55
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Depends, if your in England its "Billions" not "Trillions" and after UK's Trillions (our billions), im not sure whats next.


Quadrillions? That sounds right. I guess we will have to wait till Bill Gates gets there

	30-01-2002 11:17									#56
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First point from a stupid American: (to the poster who asked if Americans knew who the heads of the various European States were)

Isn't the eventual goal of the EU, whether stated or not, to become a sort of "United States of Europe"? If so, here's a question for the Europeans: Who's the governor of Michigan or North Carolina or Idaho?

Second Point from a stupid American: (to the poster who took labor dept stats and applied various formulas to them)

If you try to take static figures from a survey and apply mathematical formulas to them to determine the validity of the $100bil number, you understand nothing about economics. The number is indeterminable but grows daily.

Forgetting about the obvious direct impact consider a more removed impact. Just one example:

I own a small, small business. Not even 1/1000th of 1% of the American economy. Nevertheless, my profits have been down about $30,000 over the period. But, to say that the cost to me was $30,000 is ridiculous. Take that lost $30,000 and compound it over years and years at an average rate of return. Then see what you come up with.

And what about "Company X" who is a little more marginal of a company than mine and it goes out of business? Then you could say the cost of 9/11, to that proprietor, (not to mention his employees and customers and suppliers) would be the lifetime earnings of his company. (20-30 years at $50,000 - $60,000 a year compounded annually is in the millions and that's only one person) What happens when he can't send his kids to college? (Lifetime earnings of a college educaiton vs High School education = ???) What happens when he cant afford the new car or a night out at a restuarant? It goes on and on and on.

Third point from a stupid American:

Maybe some of the non-North Americans here are used to fighting wars on their own turf every 20 years or so, if not more frequently. I'm glad to say we're not.

Maybe that causes them to accept/expect these types of events and underestimate the losses. On the same token, maybe it shocks us a little more. So be it, but, I know which side of that equation I want to be on.

I'm glad to say that you have to go back to the 1860's to find a war in North (not Central or South) America. And that was a civil war. What continent other then Australia and Antartica can say that.

So, to all of you that want to pooh-pooh this event go ahead. But personally, I can't even imagine what the true cost is. I do know one thing. $100bil is no where near accurate - it is way too low.

	30-01-2002 15:12									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Deity Dude Isn't the eventual goal of the EU, whether stated or not, to become a sort of "United States of Europe"? If so, here's a question for the Europeans: Who's the governor of Michigan or North Carolina or Idaho?

Thatīs totally beside the point. The US is ONE country with ONE language and ONE (eerr?) culture. Not so with the EU. You canīt compare US and the EU in other terms than purely economical.

Besides that Iīd like to say that September 11th has been a gigantic success for Bush, he has like 80-85% of the population behind him, and NOTHING he does will get criticized for a VERY long time. If he would disband congress and declare marshal law, or change the contitution so he could be elected president for life, the people would applaude him. And the military would applaude him īcause heīs increased military spending, and thatīs all theyīre interested in, really. I would think that he has "world terrorism" to thank for his massive support, he should send a "Thank You Card" to Usama bin Laden

	30-01-2002 15:53									#58
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Deity Dude:

"Isn't the eventual goal of the EU, whether stated or not, to become a sort of "United States of Europe"?"

Ok, so you only have to know Prodi. Or Aznar ?

"Maybe some of the non-North Americans here are used to fighting wars on their own turf every 20 years or so, if not more frequently. I'm glad to say we're not. Maybe that causes them to accept/expect these types of events and underestimate the losses. On the same token, maybe it shocks us a little more."

To be cynical - an event that pushes the US murder statistics from 15.000 per year to 18.000 in 2001 ? What about those losses ?

El Awrence:

"BUNDEStag, Imran, BUNDEStag... "

Well, no... the Bundestag is in the Reichstag. Isn't that obvious ?

	30-01-2002 18:06									#59
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc IIRC That's when the Berlin Wall fell, paiktis22.

Quit following me around Ms Monneypenny.

	30-01-2002 19:57									#60
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quote: Originally posted by markusf What has always confused me about this is why go to all the trouble of hijacking an airplane and flying it into sky scrappers, when you could do far more damage driving up to a city resovoir and dropping in some kind of chemical weapon, or blowing up the alaska pikeline, trains etc.

The terrorists weren't seeking for a large amount of casualties but giving a strong blow to the American pride and public security by hiting symbolic buildings like the WTC and the pentagon. Fortunately for them and unfortunately for the rest civilized world they additionally caused the death of too many people.

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 It's 11/9.

11/9 = European date format

9/11 = American date format

Both are refering to the same date.
Americans just put the month first and the day after.