24-10-2000 06:48									#1
	Space Ship Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Please list your ideas for improving the Civ II spaceship for civ III here

Idea #1
-Better Graphics.

	24-10-2000 07:08									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I think it should go to Mars instead of Alpha Centauri. Alpha Centauri is a little ridiculous since there is no planet to colonize. Unless they don't colonize a planet, I think they should do Mars first. Maybe some kind of terraforming project could be included.

	24-10-2000 07:12									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Alpha Centauri was for the game- they went to Alpha C system but Chiron the planet.

	24-10-2000 07:45									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Cooperatively built spaceships is a must for allies. Like the International Space station, except the one in the game will actually do something.

------------------
No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary...

	24-10-2000 08:44									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I still say go to Mars. Whats the point of colonizing a new solar system if you haven't colonized this one to the fullest? And I may be splitting hairs, but there is no real planet in the Alpha Centauri system.

	24-10-2000 09:36									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

Don Pedro II, how do you know if there is or isn't a planet in the Alpha Centauri System. The only planets that we can detect are planets aroun 10 times the size of Jupiter. There could be an earth like planet (or even 2) in the ALpha Centauri Sytem and we wouldn't know about it.


------------------
- Biddles

"Now that our life-support systems are utilising the new Windows 2027 OS, we don't have to worry about anythi......."
Mars Colonizer Mission

	24-10-2000 09:46									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I would like your space ship to go to mars, and actually go for a reason! When you reach, you can start colonizing it. And then you can start building spaceship transport ships that can transport people imbetween planets.

	24-10-2000 13:47									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I would like the cities had to build a space launch facilities (like NASA Cape Kennedy in Florida or ESA Kourou in French Guyana) before starship parts launch to orbit.

A permanent space station should probably be a pre-requisite, but that should be a simple (still really expensive) project (not many parts assembly like real ISS Alpha or the Starship itself).

I'll like to have to chose form different project in advance (not mid building change of mind from a full beast to the mini version, just to cope with a quick adversary) and an advanced panel that will show the starship parts needed vs. already under costruction, to avoid my usual mess with double production and last minute missing vital parts

About Moon, Mars and asteroids bases, they can be in game but as great projects/wonders, not as an end of CIV 3 game itself. Don't forget an Alpha centauri mission become a need to flee from a Earth in serius trouble (see the SMAC story background).
Mars is not really an option, a Chiron (AC planet) could be a better hope (then may be not, but you don't know at the time ).

Of course something is missing: none will probably lauch a starship full of people before automatic probe will sent back enough info, but we can't have all right!

------------------
Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

	24-10-2000 14:28									#9
	Remove this text

BTW, the space ship should take a Camel with it...

	24-10-2000 20:23									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Sorry, no Camel: only no smoking seat allowed

------------------
Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

	24-10-2000 20:53									#11
	Remove this text

There is a possiblilty there is a planet in the Alpha Centauri system, we just don't know about it yet.

We can't see planets well.

	24-10-2000 22:24									#12
	Put an end to popups!

i agree with ultrastix - it should be allowd to be a joint venture among several countries. you should either have to build a space stations (orbital) or launch pad - while both would be necessary before space colonizatin, only wone should be implemented in the game. Mars is a good idea, esp. since NASA already has the plans for terraforming it mapped out. - but i you go to mars there would only be a 2 year window from launch to land, so your odds would be grealy reduced in comparision to alpha centuri. so that would kinda take away fromthe game a little.


------------------
"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."
-Michael Sinz

	28-10-2000 22:02									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Bump.

	28-10-2000 23:09									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well, I doubt there is a planet in the AC system because those other planets we discovered were around stars that were MUCH farther out into space. Alpha Centauri is our neighbor and spotting smaller planets would be easier, but since we have no confirmation, I think I'll let that point slide.

And I question the point about AC being used as an evacuation point. The fact is that unless the Sun is blowing up, Mars could be a safe haven too. And even the Sun won't be a threat for another billion years or so. We don't even have the resources to send 100 people to Mars right now let alone send the rest of mankind to Alpha Centauri.

I think Mars, although slightly less ambitious, is a better goal than Alpha Centauri. My problem with the AC project goes back to my trouble with Star Trek. We didn't bother to colonize any of our own planets with convential rockets, we've got the warp drive without any previous deep space experience. Space exploration is a process of evolution not revolution.

	28-10-2000 23:14									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Ahhh, go on then, one more post today lol.

We don't know if there are planets around AC because we can only see the effects of a huge planet, not the planet itself. This is largely irrelevant of the distance from us, up to a point. There could be (and quite probably is) several much smaller planets orbiting it. Nothing to do with Civ, but worth pointing out...

	29-10-2000 06:42									#16
	Put an end to popups!

When you evacuate a sinking ship do you get in the life boat and sit right next to the ship? Of course not, the ship would still pull you down with it.

That would be the effect of evacuating to Mars. It is too close to earth and any conflict would enevitably spill over to Mars. For example, the colonists would still have nationalistic ties and would support that government ....

As for the planet around AC situation, chrispie is right, the planets we detect are actually the detection of a gravitational wobble in the planets primary star, and those 'planets' are of the order of 10 times the size of Jupiter. You can't see planets orbiting a star (I don't think it's possible even if we had highere technology) because the stars light at that distance is so bright that it drowns out the light of any planet (think of the star as ruining your night vision). So no matter how close the system is, we still can't see any earth like planet with our current technology.

	29-10-2000 09:33									#17
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Ok. Ok. I admit it! My logic was a little screwed up on the matter of a planet around Alpha Centauri. I still stand by a Mars colony first.

And what disaster could POSSIBLY be big enough that Mars would not be a good life boat? An asteroid? Nope. A nuclear holocaust? Nope. And how will nationalistic feelings be stopped by going the extra step to Alpha Centauri??

Nemo had a good point though. My suggestion is that instead of making the point of delay not between launch of the ship and landing, but rather between setting up of the colony and a point where it is definitely able to survive on there own. Remember, just because they actually survived the trip doesn't mean they're in the clear. The time should be about 20 years from founding to end. The time you spend equipping the colonists will determine how well they survive.

	29-10-2000 18:09									#18
	Tired of ads?

Okay, say there was a long drawn out war on earth (meaning anything more than the 1 hour required for Nuclear Holocaust). As many people who can are going to try to jump ship from earth, since mars is so close by it would be quite easy to do (assuming ther was already a colony there). Now lets assume that people from both sides of the conflict make it to mars, they ain't going to be happy with each other. These people probably outnumber any martian colonists and so there is going to be a very messy situation on mars.

Don't get me wrong, mars should be included in the game, just not in place of AC. Since civ1 it has been AC and AC is the logical choice for the storyline anyway. Maybe include mars as a trial colony, something for the scientists and engineers to cut there teeth on.


------------------
- Biddles

"Now that our life-support systems are utilising the new Windows 2027 OS, we don't have to worry about anythi......."
Mars Colonizer Mission

	30-10-2000 01:11									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

All I am saying is that the "life boat" plan doesn't have a whole lot to back it up. No country in their right mind would decide to set up a colony on Alpha Centauri IN CASE a war ever breaks out having had absolutely no prior experience with space colonies.

If we at least include Mars as a step, it will be better. I don't think Mars should be a wonder. Rather I think it should be one part of THE Space Program. Assemble a station, put a colony on Mars, send a manned expedition to Alpha Centauri. That is how I think it should be.

	30-10-2000 03:11									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Yes, I like this....where the end game race to victory is a set of goals to be achived. Firstly, build a space station, which generates science, then maybe a colony on Mars, which generates more science..and eventually send an expedition to AC. Maybe the more resources a player puts into the current achived task, the faster s/he can go for the next one.

Obviously, all these should be "do-able" as an alliance, speeding the process up.

	30-10-2000 04:06									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I think the whole coordinated joint-venture challenge was one of the more fun end-game aspects of Civ-2. I really hope that Firaxis comes up with something great here.

Personally, i would prefer "United countries of the earth" and "Everlasting peace and harmony". I think of our planet as an spaceship in itself. Why downgrade, by letting a fractional 40000 people squeeze themselfes into a tinbox; then move annoyingly slow through the endless void, only to "conquer" some unfamiliar, barren and Godforsaken planet out there? This place would almost certainly not house any of our own beautiful blue-white planet:s especially adapted convenienceses. Thats for sure!

	30-10-2000 15:21									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Don Pedro II - What are we arguing about? I agree, include Mars in the process, but AC should be the final goal. Hey, Mars will make things more interesting. (If they are going to include future techs maybe they can include asteroid mining).


------------------
- Biddles

"Now that our life-support systems are utilising the new Windows 2027 OS, we don't have to worry about anythi......."
Mars Colonizer Mission

	31-10-2000 06:41									#24
	Remove this text

I think we are fogetting one very important aspect, clearly the ship must resemble the UNS Unity

A Mars colonization project would be cool, but not as an end-game wonder.

------------------
"You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you"

"Soylant Green is people. PPPeeeoooppllleee!"

	31-10-2000 07:29									#25
	Put an end to popups!

I didn't read everyones post, but I find this a really interesting topic to discuss and we should try to perfect it for Firaxis.

It's true, trying to colonize Alpha Centauri before Mars would be an incorrect move. I REALLY liked the system used in the 1st game of Outpost. I had so much to choose from. I felt like it was all up to me to do it right. If I did it wrong, then I screwed it up for everyone. That's the sort of pressure I like and I think a leader should feel.

Anyway, it should be costly, it should take a while, and it should cause a world-wide influence. And it should be MARS! THEN, 100 years later? Send a few million people to Alpha Centauri on massive transport ships. Which would be harder than Mars, more costly, take longer and cause an even bigger world-wide influence. How's that sound for a game ending, rather than a big sign sayin "congratulations you landed on alpha centauri"

:]

	31-10-2000 08:02									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

Well, I think players should have several choices of where to send spaceships to. Mars is definitely an important one, but what about the moon, what about Pluto, or Jupiter's or Saturn's moons. Besides, we already know, or at least mostly, what the surface of these planets and moons look like, so they can be realistically mapped.

As far as cost is concerned, the more complex the mission, the more it cost. Also the more you explore, the less it costs to reach other destinations.

In real life, space exploration has resulted in numerous scientific advances that have not only made space exploration itself more routine, but has helped people on earth as well. That's why as soon your Civ discovers the secret of Space Flight, the science rate should increase, as well as when you inhabit another planet. And as you explore you will get certain techs which will allow you to eventually reach Alpha Centauri.

Moons and planets that are gaseous and/or too hot, which makes them simply inhabitable (like Jupiter and Venus, for example), should be excluded.

And last but not least, Alpha Centauri can be included as the ultimate goal to win the game.

------------------
JRH

	31-10-2000 15:04									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'd say. Colonize Mars! Not Alpha Centauri.

Here are my arguments:

- Realism, Governments actually plan to begin colonize mars within the next 100 years.

- Experience, there is no way possible for mankind to colonize other solar systems without the experience and knwledge developed from colonizing Mars.

- Even if we don't know about existence of habitable planets in AC we certainly know about Mars.

- It feels silly, sending a colony to AC, when we don't even has discovered the technology to actually spot a habitable planet there. I mean, does a government send colonies to unexplored terrain?

- The cost of sending a colony to AC is maybe more than hundred times more expensive than colonize Mars, and Even Mars is so hard to colonize that experts estimate that it will take hundred of years before we actually have a real colony on Mars.

- Todays spaceship take more than three years to come to Mars, the time spent for coming to AC is endlessly more.

Basically, what i'm saying is: There is no way we are going to colonize other solarsystems until we have colonized this one. People are not willing to travel in hundred of years just to find out that there may be no place for them when they arrive. Human beings take one step at a time and the next step is Mars, not other solar systems.

	01-11-2000 02:48									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I like the Outpost idea. It would be good to launch probes to explore other star systems. Because like I said, maybe there isn't a planet around Alpha Centauri. Let's leave it up to the game. And before the trip to another star. We should have the option for going to Mars, Europa, or Titan. Since we have an option inside the solar system, the more difficult to live on should give us bonus points.

Also, I think interstellar trips should be WAY in the future. I think the game should go at least into the 23rd century for that because we can't do it now. I realize that most people usually have launched the space ship by 1800, but there should be more time for extra techs to lengthen the time.

	01-11-2000 15:10									#30
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Personally I agree I think Marse is more likeley for mass settlement. This would also mean other tech for terraforming Mars would be needed before we could go. I also feel that their should be a stepping stone system, we build a space station, the a moon base and then go to mars. In civ it always fealt weird that I went straight for Alpha Century.

------------------
I have walked since the dawn of time and were ever I walk, death is sure to follow