31-08-2000 06:39									#1
	Secret Bases (from which to spread chaos) Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

YAWN! Been gone for a month.

I think that having your capitol city captured is the quick-n-easy way to stop your starship. Also going to each city in your country to launch your Nukes is very tedious and does not need the attention that moving troops does. So I think that you should be able to build a secret command center for all of your nukes. To make this you could simply make a underground fortress, an aircraft squdron or a base carved inside of a mountain (If Civ III goes into the near future than there could be underwater bases, too). This base would function as the secondary capitol of your empire and also be the command center of your nuclear arsenal. If you wanted to launch a nuke at a city of your enemy you would go to your command center popup window(button on interface). In the window you can select the city you want to nuke and the computer will display all nukes that can make it to the city and nukes that can be ordered to explode near the city to further damage it. You can also call up an overview of all of your nukes and what cities each can reach. This will also tell you what military units can make it to the city to capture it. You can also order the command center to launch all nukes at either preset targets or any city they can reach if your command center falls under attack. (Like a Doomsday order). If you chose to do this than any surviving countries will be pretty pissed so it causes diplomatic penalties like every country wanting to destroy you!

Tell me what you think!

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"Adorare Christantine!!!"
Republican Decree #1

	31-08-2000 17:04									#2
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I hate sea cities, but the idea of building secret bases is a good one, though we can do that already. But please no sea cities at least not like land ones. I hated this in SMAC

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I have walked since the dawn of time and were ever I walk, death is sure to follow

	01-09-2000 09:23									#3
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Deathwalker

I didn't mean underwater or floating cities but underwater bases about 100,000 square feet wide and about one story tall with maybe 30 to 40 people not a 7 square mile long metropolis or dome.

Each base would be able to take different amounts of damage from either warheads or military attack. This is a rough table on how each base would defend itself:

Underground Base-A hollow under a 1/2 to 1 mile of soil. If enemy does not know where it is than it acts as a normal square. If they do than they have a choice to attack it or go over it.

Attack: 10
Defend: 15
Cost: 1000 Gold
Tech: Underground Structures

Improvements:

Military Base on Surface: +5 Attack and Defence; Acts as combined airbase and fortress; can be detected from flat terrain if next to base; hill if 1 square away; mountain if 2 squares away. 50% chance underground base will be discovered if surface base is destroyed.

Aircraft Squadron-A formation of large airliners that is launched from the capital when capital is taken. Does need to be refueled regularly.

Attack: 0
Defend: 0
Movement Rate: 20
Cost: 500 Gold
Tech: Flight

Improvements:

Fighter Escort: Attack: +16 Stealth +32 Defend: +12 Stealth +12; -10 Movement; -6 Movement Stealth. This equal to 4 of one fighter with it. Cost: 120 Gold; Stealth 320 Gold.

Stealthy Aircraft: Makes the formation have the same qualities as stealth craft. This only applies to the formation not the support craft with it. Cost: 100 Gold

Tanker: Cancels out movement penalties for having fighter escort. Cost: 200 Gold.


Mountain Fortress-Hollowed out mountain with base inside.

Attack: 30
Defend: 200
Tech: Underground Strutures.
Cost: 5000 Gold

Improvements:

None???

Tell me what you think.

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"Adorare Christantine!!!"
Chrisonian Decree #1
[This message has been edited by Christantine The Great (edited September 01, 2000).]

	01-09-2000 16:43									#4
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The ideas above are very good, but would it make it too easy to kill the AI civs? I can't imagine an AI good enough to be able to try and attack the underwater secret bases, or one smart enough to build its own.

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	02-09-2000 09:56									#5
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I dropped the Underwater Base but I do not see a problem with the AI building their Secret Base. Maybe the Secret Base could be a Human tool like some people want "minor Civs" (Which I hate) to be. I think that the rule with AIs would be to build underground bases if they live in a flat area; Mountain Fortresses if they live in the high altitudes; Aircraft if they live on islands or inhospitable areas. There would be a limit to how many bases you could have: 1. Anyway the civ doesn't die if you destroy its capital and is Secret Base. The base's only functions are to prevent the Alpha Centauri ship from being destroyed, to have a way to punish the world if they conquer you by letting loose all of your nuclear arsenal and to keep your civ from breaking apart after the capital was captured. Also the two land based forts can hold a certain number of settlers to repopulate the world if a nuclear winter is created.

Please make sugestions people!

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"Adorare Christantine!!!"
Chrisonian Decree #1

	03-09-2000 02:56									#6
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Bump

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"Adorare Christantine!!!"
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	03-09-2000 13:00									#7
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Well, I like like the idea of secret bases and have said so before, but only as bases, not actual cities. Like having the engineer build an airbase, naval base, supply depot, or army base/fort in a way as to make detection difficult. That's all.

	04-09-2000 17:34									#8
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I agree with Theben: no way to have a really secret town in modern times.

We can have "lost/forbidden cities" in old-middle ages, under some condition (hostile territory, like an oasis in the middle of desert or a city on mountain like in Tibet), but you should have an high level of isolationism on S.E. and some penalties on trade.

Under these limit, we can have city hidden from common unit view (not dedicated Explorer) also if adiacent, but not right on movement path: i.e. you can find it only if you hit your head against the city walls .
Of course any smart player can use roads or developed territory as a hint for find hidden town.

As for hidden bases, I think that any base larger than a few bunker will be discover on modern time assumed the CIV turn lenght. They can be harder to attack, but also expensive to build.

About using them as kind of "AirForce One" or Norad base for nuclear defense/counterattack, I'm for shift this NBC strategical warfare on a civilization screen, instead of a special city/base menu.

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

	04-09-2000 18:52									#9
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It won't be a city! It would be a base but it won't be the "base" from SMAc!

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"Freedom, Trade, Christantine!"

	04-09-2000 19:42									#10
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I like the idea of these hidden bases.

Whatīs about some bases which boost your science output (Area 51) but when discovered gives you a diplomatic penalty from democratic states and causes unhappiness in your own nation because of the unethical research methods?

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----Mongolia Rules------

	05-09-2000 05:10									#11
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The idea is great and the bases shouldn't be that easy to find. Just try to look for a base in the rocky mountains. Since it is underground/in mountain you can't detect it from the air and sending land units to search for it would be a long drawn out effort. You can also make it a train like the Soviet trains which they used to hide and move their nukes. The bases should have limits as to how many units it can house. A special type of base could be a nuclear silo. This would be a bit easier to spot since it needs to be able to open its top to launch its nukes. After a lauch it should be visible and can be marked on the map. One thing which I haven't figured out is how to build it without other people detecting it while it is being built. You can't have an engineer there because if another player sees him (survailance plane or from space) they'll either notice that he is building some kind of base by the letter on him, or they'll notice that he worked there several turns, but there is no visable improvement. Either way they'll discover the base.

	05-09-2000 06:32									#12
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Khan

I like your idea. Maybe secret bases could be displayed with square yards or something and you could take templates of parts (i.e. a lab room, nuke silo) and you could mix and match to build a full base.

Mo

Maybe you could cover it up by having two workers there, one pretending to build a mine, the other building the secret base and giving the dug out soil and rock to the miner.

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"Freedom, Trade, Christantine!"

	05-09-2000 15:26									#14
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Do you remember the game "Ufo: Enemy Unknown"? Of course you do...
The bases could be designed in a same way, but in the end:
Isnīt that to complex?

	06-09-2000 05:39									#15
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Sorry Khan, never heard of it. Please explain.

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"Freedom, Trade, Christantine!"

	06-09-2000 11:23									#16
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That would be X-COM in America. Not too terribly complex, but that's essentially what I asked for, considering it's a strategic game.

	06-09-2000 12:39									#17
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Hi,

Secret bases could be a simple terrain improvement, like a hidden airport. They would allow you to host nukes. The base would be invisible to enemy until a ground unit occupies the same square. In case of nuclear attack, you could rippost from these basses. Altough I think that the concept of MAD is a more important to emulate a cold war situation, this concept could also be important (not knowing from where could the enemy launch its missiles).
This is a concept easy to implement.

About secret 'command centers' allowing you to save the space ship if the capital is conquerred, I think a simple city improvement can handle it. Create in more cities a 'Space command center' and you avoid loosing the ship when a city is occupied. You could only loose it if you lost all your 'Space command centers'.

Regards,
Remus

P.S. UFO was a GREAT game, I really enjoy it. To bad it did not left any noticeable sequel. Maybe there are people arrounf remmebering ZX's 'Laser Squad'?

	06-09-2000 14:42									#18
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Oh, Yes, it is X-Com in America...
I love this game really, but of course civ more...

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----Mongolia Rules------

	09-09-2000 03:36									#19
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I don't think that city improvements can solve everything. It would be extreamly expensive to rebuild the command center for the U.S.'s NASA in every American city in North America.

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"Freedom, Trade, Christantine!"

	03-11-2000 05:22									#20
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I had a thread about "Secret Internal Affairs". One of the things I sugested was a similar idea.
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum6/HTML/001339.html

I suggest making a special city that cannot grow beyond size 5. Can't build most improvements (bnka, temple etc.)

Here's thoughts about the city:

1. Would it have production? Or would it just be a storage place for nukes and units that cause unhappiness?

2. If it is producing units, would it have unlimited (or increased) support? (if it can't grow beyond size 5 or whatever)

3. Can it have it's own science research? That is, the nation is working on a cure for AIDS, while in Area 51 we're inventing new synthtic killer viruses / weapons / people .

4. How is it discovered? Can it be accidentally discovered by people from your own nation? Just imagine a sneaky reporter finding it's way into Area 51 and publishing it...

	05-11-2000 03:07									#21
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hey, people, react please!
this is important!

it's a new cool major [insert adjective here] thing for civ 3!

	05-11-2000 03:49									#22
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....mumble schmumble BUMP grumble rumble....

	07-11-2000 05:18									#23
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"If you wanted to launch a nuke at a city of your enemy you would go to your command center popup window(button on interface). In the window you can select the city you want to nuke and the computer will display all nukes that can make it to the city and nukes that can be ordered to explode near the city to further damage it. You can also call up an overview of all of your nukes and what cities each can reach. This will also tell you what military units can make it to the city to capture it. You can also order the command center to launch all nukes at either preset targets or any city they can reach if your command center falls under attack. (Like a Doomsday order). If you chose to do this than any surviving countries will be pretty pissed so it causes diplomatic penalties like every country wanting to destroy you!"

This should definitely be implemented. I always thought it tedious and a little silly to have my nuke "walk" across land/sky whatever to strike its target. The thing that makes nukes so terrifying is their unstoppability (until SDI) and that it only takes minutes to wipe out a city. Besides, how do you know who hit you unless you have global tracking capability. I think that only those nations with some sort of satellite improvement built should be able to recognize where strikes come from.

	08-11-2000 02:07									#24
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I agree that people shouldn't know who nuked them unless they have some sort of tracking system.

However against AI this will be somewhat difficult to implement:

You will see the color of the Nuke unit, or you will see who'se turn is it when you get nuked.

Also, AI will cheat and will always know who nuked it. Ehich is quite annoying.

	08-11-2000 02:29									#25
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I agree that people shouldn't know who nuked them unless they have some sort of tracking system.

However against AI this will be somewhat difficult to implement:

You will see the color of the Nuke unit, or you will see who'se turn is it when you get nuked.

Also, AI will cheat and will always know who nuked it. Which is quite annoying.