30-01-2002 15:09									#31
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If you try to prefent an invasion and you fail in that and are also not able to do a counter invastion(what USSR did in WWII) then have you lost ! That looks me self explaining.

Just the idea that the one with least deads wins a war is a joke, the Russians losts extremely many people in WWII but they ended up as the biggest winner of it(they gained whole eastern Europe as pet).

Quite all wars are about a certain piece of territory, who(or his allies) has most of that territory at the end of the war has won, that's at least how 99% of the historians view it. Isn't that simple?

What will come next? Someone saying that Germans won WWII ?

	30-01-2002 15:10									#32
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it has to do more than deaths. The U.S. never lost a single battle. Including the Tet offensive. All ground was retaken shortly after Tet began.

How can a country win every battle yet lose a war?

	30-01-2002 15:11									#33
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and vietnam is a separate country. You can't expect the U.S. to hold that territory. It was never ours to begin with.

	30-01-2002 15:15									#34
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Kolpo: If you tell a Russian that his country won WW2, he will tell you that they did so, but not in any way worth while. Twenty million dead does not balance out with Eastern Europe.

Germany lost WW2, in every way of looking at it. Ten million or more dead, their country destroyed, their military ruined.

WW3 hasn't happened yet, hopefully it never will.

Dissident: I agree with you basically, but not specifically. The Allies in WW2 recaptured France, so did we win the Battle of France? Simply because we recaptured territory does not mean we won a battle. I do not think we won in Vietnam, but we certainly did not lose either.

"We have learned the immortal lesson of Viet-nam: Stay out of Viet-nam." -George H. W. Bush (aka Dana Carvey)

Steele

	30-01-2002 15:18									#35
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you could say that Nixon lost the war. As CIC he made the ultimate decision. But the U.S. military machine didn't even come close to losing the war. They could have went on another 20 or 30 years. But Nixon promised to end the war to the voters. Although he was already elected a second term. What did he care.

	30-01-2002 15:19									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident it has to do more than deaths. The U.S. never lost a single battle. Including the Tet offensive. All ground was retaken shortly after Tet began. How can a country win every battle yet lose a war?

Guerillia doesn't works with battles but with slowely weakening the enemy.

Guerillia doesn't have real terrirtory until the end of the war(when the enemy retreats), but they are everywhere and anywhere hidden in many places. If they by this are able to hurt the occuping force so hard that they retreat looks that to me like a victory even while it was not in an official battle but again guerillia, guerillia doesn't often use big battles.

Most people who fought there said that it was clearly a defeat and that they had no chance, that it was just one insane unwinnable mission, just like 95% of the historians.

	30-01-2002 15:20									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident How can a country win every battle yet lose a war?

It was said of the Romans they lost every battle and won every war. The same was said of the Brits. You guys have a lot to learn about empire building

	30-01-2002 15:22									#38
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well my argument is based on people who badmouth the U.S. military. The U.S. military could have continued fighting that war forever. As long as people are still producing children back home, the military can fight on. the military wasn't forced to retreat due to enemy opposition, but due to presidential order.

	30-01-2002 15:30									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident it has to do more than deaths. The U.S. never lost a single battle. Including the Tet offensive. All ground was retaken shortly after Tet began. How can a country win every battle yet lose a war?

Simple, the Americans did not win every battle in Vietnam. They lost numerous firefights on a regular basis. They lost the battle for heart and mind of the ordinary Vietnamese. They lost the battle for public support at home and abroad.

You also mistake, as do many others, holding ground and controlling it. The Tet offensive proved that the Americans did not truely control major cities in the south. After the battle, the American generals claimed victory and said they had wiped out the VC, but no one believed them because before the battle the generals claimed the VC was a spent force and that the south was safe.

It wasn't the media that turned the Tet offensive into a victory. It was the lies of the generals.

The main reason the war was lost was that the American public finally woke up to the fact that it was a stupid war. The US had no right to install and prop up corrupt, puppet governments in Vietnam. The deaths of thousands of Vietnamese and Americans was achieving nothing.

What has been forgotten is that the witdrawal of US forces from Vietnam was a victory for democracy. The American people forced their government to change its foreign policy and to end a war that the majority were against.

	30-01-2002 15:31									#40
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the president just enacted what the people wanted.. they saw the hell hole their boys were fighting in, the saw the body bags. If the same level of reproting was allowed with the same sort of visuals in WW2 or especially WW1 the USA would have pulled out of them too and left the Germans to win.

It was a lack of ability to keep taking losses (even though they were lwoer than their enemies) that cost America that war. IMHO

	30-01-2002 15:32									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident The U.S. has never lost a war. Militarily we did not lose in Vietnam. We had staggering success on the military front.

I would have said the same about Rome until maybe 378 or 410.

Whether the US has been the greatest military power in history can only be judged after its fall.

	30-01-2002 15:33									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident well my argument is based on people who badmouth the U.S. military. The U.S. military could have continued fighting that war forever. As long as people are still producing children back home, the military can fight on. the military wasn't forced to retreat due to enemy opposition, but due to presidential order.

That reminds me of the old joke that American soldiers never retreat, they just advance to the rear.

	30-01-2002 15:34									#43
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What about Cuba ?

	30-01-2002 15:37									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Rasputin the president just enacted what the people wanted.. they saw the hell hole their boys were fighting in, the saw the body bags. If the same level of reproting was allowed with the same sort of visuals in WW2 or especially WW1 the USA would have pulled out of them too and left the Germans to win. It was a lack of ability to keep taking losses (even though they were lwoer than their enemies) that cost America that war. IMHO

IIRC, during WWII, the American government initially censored films showing dead American troops. But then FDR ordered that the films be shown to show the people the conditions that the troops were facing. Rather than discouraging the public, the images created even more support.

People will support a just war even if it involves high casualties, but not an unjust war or a pointless war.

	30-01-2002 15:39									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident The U.S. military could have continued fighting that war forever. As long as people are still producing children back home, the military can fight on.

That would be rather pointless, wouldn't it?

Vietnam didn't kill the US like Afghanistan killed the USSR simply because the US has a fatter economy. Staying in there for another 5 or 10 years, and it'd be hard to tell.

	30-01-2002 20:30									#46
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quote: Originally posted by steelehc Not quite. What about the Tet offensive? We lost that one.

The 1968 Tet Offensive was a military disaster for General Vo Nguyen Giap and his forces. It only succeded on the only front that it was meant to, in the realm of American public opinion.

Re War of 1812: It really isn't accurate to say that anyside "lost" that particular war as no major military/terrirorial gains were made be either side and the major issues that caused the war were not settled. Stalemate would be the more accurate term.

	30-01-2002 20:51									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Militarily we did not lose in Vietnam.

Neither Vietnamise did.

When you invade in a country with the purpose to beat the hell out of them and enforce them to accept your demands and fail to do so then you are the loser and certainly not the winner.

You went there to prevent North Vietnam from absorbing South Vietnam and you end up with near 50.000 deads and the unification of the two Vietnams into one under the North Vietnam control.

Is this what you call win?

quote: Originally posted by Dissident In conclusion: The United States is the greatest military power the world has ever known in its entire history.

Have they ever faced a strong enemy on their own?
I don't think so
A great army? You could say that. But the greatest?

Imagine that Alexander the Great wiped out the greatest empire the known world ever faced before the rise of the Roman Empire, the Persians with much smaller army and with no lost battle at all.
The Mongols conquered the entire Asia
The Germans kicked the butt of half Europe on their own before facing defeat from the combined forces of the strongest countries of the western world and the Russian winter

The only think you accomplished on your own is some invasions on Latin American and African weak countries.

	30-01-2002 21:02									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident How can a country win every battle yet lose a war?

Sit right down and I'll tell you the story of Pyrrhus of Epirus.

Pyrrus of Epirus was a great general back around 280 BC. He was called on by the Greeks of southern Italy to defeat the Romans. So he came in, and he never lost a single battle against the Romans.

But he left, and the Romans eventually conquered Italy.

He had a limited force, and the Romans made him pay dearly for every battle he won (hence, pyrrhic victory), and he had to leave, having no more troops left.

	30-01-2002 22:11									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Keygen The only think you accomplished on your own is some invasions on Latin American and African weak countries.

And what about Cuba ? Was that country conquered by USA ?

They sent anti-castrist cuban soldiers (a plan mounted by CIA & Mafia) and promise an air protection which never arrived .

It was sadly a bloodbath.

Americans are so angry to have lose a battle against this tiny state that they are still imposing an abusive blocus.

	30-01-2002 22:50									#50
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Depends what you mean by winning. Certainly, the original aim (taking over one of France's colonial wars for them to get support for West German rearmament in Europe) was accomplished. The Final aim (getting out reasonably unscathed and stopping the domino effect from taking place) was almost accomplished. However, if you're suggesting that at no point was the American aim to invade the whole of vietnam and leave a US-friendly government in power, I'd say you were quite absurdly wrong. I'd even say that that was the aim during most of the war.

	30-01-2002 22:51									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Harpax Did you win World War II as well?

I imagine you're not American and I appreciate your right to believe we did not win the war for you, however I only excuse it because you need the morale. If you notice no one entered on either side after the United States. Why? Because when we entered and flexed our production muscle and our flair for tactics everyone knew the war would be over and who would win.

Even after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, they knew it was over. Yamoto said "I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant."


*I apologize for that. It was rather rash. I'm just sick of Europe's feeling or remorse when we SAVED you. We couldn't have done it alone, but neither could all of you combined.

	30-01-2002 22:56									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Snapcase Certainly, the original aim (taking over one of France's colonial wars for them to get support for West German rearmament in Europe) was accomplished.

West German rearmament was related to the war in Korea, not the American engagement in Vietnam...

	30-01-2002 23:12									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Viper2263 I imagine you're not American and I appreciate your right to believe we did not win the war for you, however I only excuse it because you need the morale. If you notice no one entered on either side after the United States. Why? Because when we entered and flexed our production muscle and our flair for tactics everyone knew the war would be over and who would win.

: Where do they get these people?

	30-01-2002 23:16									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Where do they get these people?

I suppose it is time that someone explain "The birds and the bees" to Rogan Josh.

	30-01-2002 23:18									#55
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quote: The U.S. has never lost a war. Militarily we did not lose in Vietnam. We had staggering success on the military front.

Denial

You're not the only one though. It seems (some) Americans have trouble admitting defeat.

Since the US achieved none of it's objectives in the end, it has clearly lost the war.

quote: In conclusion: The United States is the greatest military power the world has ever known in its entire history.

And after reading this statement it's clear the thread is a troll. And a poor one at that. The greatest military power ever? Better brush up on your history, you need it.

	30-01-2002 23:23									#56
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Technically Vietnam was not war. It was a "peace keeping action. Congress never declared war, therefore the U.S. economy never shifted gears. The United States is one of the most flexible countries in the world in that way. If Congress had declared war we simply would have produced Tanks instead of cars and trampled that d***ed forest with mechanized warfare. eliminating the gurellia's ability to fight effectively.

	30-01-2002 23:32									#57
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I suppose if one alters the conventional definitions of the words "won" and "war" then yes, you could argue that the United States did win the Vietnam War.

With that kind of wordplay, I could also argue that the White House is in fact a pink trailer.

	30-01-2002 23:37									#58
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quote: Technically Vietnam was not war. It was a "peace keeping action.

Peacekeeping with Napalm?

Now I know why the Europeans lead most "peace keeping actions" nowadays.

quote: If Congress had declared war we simply would have produced Tanks instead of cars and trampled that d***ed forest with mechanized warfare. eliminating the gurellia's ability to fight effectively.

Quite the armchair general huh? LOL.

	30-01-2002 23:52									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Viper2263 Technically Vietnam was not war. It was a "peace keeping action. Congress never declared war, therefore the U.S. economy never shifted gears. The United States is one of the most flexible countries in the world in that way. If Congress had declared war we simply would have produced Tanks instead of cars and trampled that d***ed forest with mechanized warfare. eliminating the gurellia's ability to fight effectively.

Using tanks agains jungle guerillia?

	31-01-2002 00:34									#60
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This thread is surrealistic.

quote: US, KIA-47,072 WIA-----313,616 NV, KIA-1,030,000 WIA------987,000

Afghanistan war:
15000 Soviet casualties
3000000 Afghan casualties
Therefore the Russians won the Afghanistan war, not?.


Sorry, Vietnamese pissed on the Americans. Bombarding from thousand meters is easy. It is in land, face to face, where it is necessary to demonstrate the valor, and there, a Vietnamese (or an afghan) is equivalent to ten Americans.