30-01-2002 10:34									#1
	The United States won the Vietnam War Increase the size of your Attachments

and nothing you can say will change my views on the matter. but feel free to try to change my mind.

The U.S. has never lost a war. Militarily we did not lose in Vietnam. We had staggering success on the military front.

In conclusion: The United States is the greatest military power the world has ever known in its entire history.

	30-01-2002 10:36									#2
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Does this have anything to do with this?

	30-01-2002 10:41									#3
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yep, I couldn't resist

and no this isn't a troll or spam thread. I really believe this. We did win every major battle after all.

	30-01-2002 10:41									#4
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quote: In conclusion: The United States is the greatest military power the world has ever known in its entire history.

Not exactly. Considering the technology that existed in the ancient world, the Roman Empire can also be considered the greatest military power, and so can the British Empire if once considers the technology that existed during the colonial era.

	30-01-2002 10:43									#5
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ahh the Germans handled them easily enough

	30-01-2002 10:43									#6
	Re: The United States won the Vietnam War Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Dissident The U.S. has never lost a war

Even if we "won" Vietnam, which is, in itself, questionable, we sure as hell lost the War of 1812. Washington was burned to the ground. Our fleets got themselves torn a new one, both on the Great Lakes, and the Atlantic, our invasion of Canada was a farce, and our international reputation went down the ****-pipe. You can say we won that one if you want, but you'd be wrong.


Steele

	30-01-2002 10:43									#7
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America's hegemony is built on fear. Its more powerful than rome because we dont have to fight our enemies. We demand them to comply, or we make examples of them. Some resist, (Iraq), others give in too what we want (China).

	30-01-2002 10:43									#8
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Other then that (1812), though, I agree with you about Vietnam. My opinions might be different if I had been there, but I wasn't.

Steele

	30-01-2002 10:44									#9
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quote: We did win every major battle after all.

Did you win World War II as well?

	30-01-2002 10:44									#10
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That was quick!

I made my post at 15:30 (AEST), and someone makes a thread on it 4 minutes later.

Personally, I'd say that:

1. The Vietnam War was unwinnable by military means.
2. The US Military did OK in conventional terms (ie body count, battles won and lost, etc), but got it's arse kicked as the North Vietnamese/Viet Cong weren't really interested in fighting a conventional war against the US - their objective was to make the Americans go away so they could finish off South Vietnam.

	30-01-2002 10:49									#11
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory others give in too what we want (China).

Like how you did with the Spy Plane?

	30-01-2002 10:51									#12
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One might argue that the US won because it's objective was to halt the spread of communism. The US held South Vietnam long enough to ensure that communists didn't attempt to make the other countries nearby fall like dominos. They make the commies pay so dearly for South Vietnam, that communist aggression in the region was deterred. Of course, that's just a view.

	30-01-2002 10:52									#13
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quote: We did win every major battle after all.

Not quite. What about the Tet offensive? We lost that one.

As for the Romans, I really don't know enough about them to make any educated remarks, but I would have to disagree with you. Ditto for the British. However, I would be open to debate about this.

Steele

	30-01-2002 10:54									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Harpax Did you win World War II as well?

Arguably, no-one wins any war. But equally arguably, yes, we did. We suffered fewer casualties then any other combatant, and we got what we wanted. We kicked the **** out of the Japanese, and restored Western Europe back to life.

Steele

	30-01-2002 11:00									#15
	Re: The United States won the Vietnam War Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Dissident and nothing you can say will change my views on the matter. but feel free to try to change my mind. The U.S. has never lost a war. Militarily we did not lose in Vietnam. We had staggering success on the military front. In conclusion: The United States is the greatest military power the world has ever known in its entire history.

This a great thread for a laugh. The US won in Vietnam.

The US gets their asses kicked by a bunch of guys with basic weapons and you call that a victory?

	30-01-2002 11:02									#16
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quote: We suffered fewer casualties then any other combatant

True, however, other than in the Pacific theater of war, the territory of the United States never came under attack (not including the U-Boats sinking a few ships on the Eastern coast and Admiral Canaris of the Abwehr operating a few a spy rings in the U.S.). As far as Europe is concerned, every major country on that continent came under attack.

	30-01-2002 11:14									#17
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Yes, the United States won the Vietnam war - and that's why they've been able to maintain a naval base at Cam Ranh Bay to this very day

	30-01-2002 11:20									#18
	Re: Re: The United States won the Vietnam War Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai This a great thread for a laugh. The US won in Vietnam. The US gets their asses kicked by a bunch of guys with basic weapons and you call that a victory?

Casualties---

US, KIA-47,072
WIA-----313,616

NV, KIA-1,030,000
WIA------987,000

Yeah, they kicked the **** out of us, alright.

Steele

	30-01-2002 11:29									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis One might argue that the US won because it's objective was to halt the spread of communism. The US held South Vietnam long enough to ensure that communists didn't attempt to make the other countries nearby fall like dominos. They make the commies pay so dearly for South Vietnam, that communist aggression in the region was deterred. Of course, that's just a view.

Academics rubbish this theory but I think it does have something to it. The war in Vietnam did help defeat communist expansionism in South East Asia. I have no doubt about that. And I have lived up there.

	30-01-2002 11:30									#20
	Re: Re: Re: The United States won the Vietnam War Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by steelehc Casualties--- US, KIA-47,072 WIA-----313,616 NV, KIA-1,030,000 WIA------987,000 Yeah, they kicked the **** out of us, alright. Steele

And how many of the Vietnamese dead and wounded were civilians?

	30-01-2002 11:31									#21
	Re: Re: Re: The United States won the Vietnam War Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by steelehc Casualties--- US, KIA-47,072 WIA-----313,616 NV, KIA-1,030,000 WIA------987,000 Yeah, they kicked the **** out of us, alright. Steele

Well, but "they" reached their goals, the USA did not. And if casualties are the only indicator for winning/not winning, then the Soviet Union must have lost WWII...

Harpax

quote: Considering the technology that existed in the ancient world, the Roman Empire can also be considered the greatest military power,

Has your user name something to do with ancient Roman navy hardware? Just curious...

	30-01-2002 11:32									#22
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It depends how you define victory.

If you go by kill ratios, the US certainly won.
If you go by objectives, then the US certainly lost.

The US gained absolutely nothing by their "invasion" and ended up leaving without making any real progress. It was a defeat in my eyes.

Not that it matters.

	30-01-2002 13:29									#23
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we did win the Tet offensive by the way. The only minor victory that the NVA could clamin in the Tet offensive was they were a force to be reconend with and would never go away. The U.S. took back all ground lost in the Tet offensive.

	30-01-2002 13:29									#24
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excuse the spelling, I'm doing 3 things at once.

	30-01-2002 13:36									#25
	Re: Re: Re: The United States won the Vietnam War Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by steelehc Casualties--- US, KIA-47,072 WIA-----313,616 NV, KIA-1,030,000 WIA------987,000 Yeah, they kicked the **** out of us, alright. Steele

According to an AP report, April 4, 1995, the Vietnamese gov't lists casualties as:
4 million civilians (killed and wounded)
1.1 million KIA
600,000 wounded
Those stats apply to the entire war of independence, a 21 year period.

I found the report at http://www.rjsmith.com/kia_tbl.html#press
I cannot vouch for the accuracy.

	30-01-2002 13:38									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis One might argue that the US won because it's objective was to halt the spread of communism. The US held South Vietnam long enough to ensure that communists didn't attempt to make the other countries nearby fall like dominos.

You're right, if you don't count Cambodia and Laos.

	30-01-2002 14:34									#27
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"The US held South Vietnam long enough to ensure that communists didn't attempt to make the other countries nearby fall like dominos"

Yeah, that's why Cambodia and Laos were both invaded within three years of 1975...

US Objectives in Vietname conflict:
-To preserve the indepedence of their client-state of south viet nam.
-To prevent 'Communist subversion' of South Viet Nam as part of the 'containment policy'.

Success Rate:

-Failed. South Vietnam no longer exists.

-Failed. Communism was popular enough amongst the poor of South Vietnam that the majority or at the very least a big chunk were at least sympathetic to the North, even when it was not in their personal best interests to be (i.e. Operation Phoenix era). The attempt to 'sell America' to the the average Vietnamese peasant failed miserably.

	30-01-2002 14:39									#28
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those are political objectives. who cares about those

Allies had objectives in ww1, none of those panned out.

	30-01-2002 14:53									#29
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The "objectives" of the Allies, or indeed, all parties involved in WW1 were simple. Keep your empire, and take what you could from the "other guys." For Britain, France, and Japan, these panned out, at least in theory. Britain and France gained "mandates" in the middle east, and Japan took over all of Germany's colonies. The US didn't lose anything, didn't gain much. The USSR got ra*ped. Germany made out badly in general terms, but was in a better position after the war then before. Austria-Hungary no longer existed.

Steele

	30-01-2002 15:08									#30
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double post