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jdlessl
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Jacksonville, USA
Mar 2000
time: 00:12
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Potatoes and Rice: I assume that 'Potatoes' is meant to represent any easily grown crop that yields a decent amount of food, while 'Rice' means a crop that requires a large investment of labor and much greater upkeep, but yields correspondingly larger harvests per acre. If so, I like the idea, but don't think it's entirely necessary. Nor are the Cattle and Fish. I think a simple 'Food' commodity would suffice. How much you get depends on what kind of effort you've put into developing the land.
Luxuries: Same problem as with food. Why so many? But if you must have some, I'd throw in Coffee (see below), Chocolate, and Recreational Drugs.
Rubber: Makes a transition from a natural to a manufactured commodity. Can someone tell me what natural rubber was used for in centuries past?
Wood: While deforestation was particularly difficult to accomplish ages ago, it has become altogether easy these days. How about forest squares having a harvesting limit and natural replenishment rate (modified somewhat by pollution) which would serve to limit how much you can get from a given square. Similarly with the other resources, like Oil and Coal, which have massive starting supplies, but do not replenish. Recycling would provide metals without having to mine for them. I suppose, though, that if we go far enough into the future the civ can just tap the core or nab some asteroids and scarf down a few trillion tons of metal.
Gold & Silver: Just mine money straight out of the ground, don't bother with real commodities.
Cars: How about Machine Parts instead? Airplanes, ships, etc, don't require cars.
Steel: Doesn't necessarily require a Steel Mill, though it would increase production immensely.
Electronics; manufactured. Used for the latest and greatest weapons systems and for certain modern city/civ improvements.
Stone; ancient. Used in many buildings, especially city walls and such.
Uranium; Modern. Power plants and fision-based weapons. Obsolete with fusion plants or cold fusion.
Coffee: Boosts production by 25% and decreases # of Electronics required by 50% (keeps those techies 24/7).
Paper: Made from wood, needed for libraries and bureaucracies. Use is decreased somewhat with the advent of computers. You know it's said that the US government buys one out of every 10 paper clips manufactured in the US.
Jared Lessl
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Dom Pedro II
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The College of New Jersey
Nov 1999
time: 05:12
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Coffee! I'm Brazilian and I forgot coffee!
The reason why there are so many luxuries is that I wanted there to be commodities that have been important to the world. Sugar and Tea have been interconnected with the activities of countries since 1500 AD and even before. Countries have had colonies for centuries for the purposes of raw materials and luxury goods such as these. They have fought wars to control them. The other thing is that each luxury increases the cities wealth. These commodities are naturally consumed by the city, and raise taxes collected by attracting more affluent people.
Actually, I made several errors when I did this... Cars were supposed to be added as a luxury as well. A city without a supply of cars is hardly a center these days. Clothes are also a manufactured luxury. Big cities without mass produced clothes at hand will not survive for long.
Potatoes and Rice were for the same reason as luxuries. Grains like corn and wheat can be found in one form or another around the world. These should be every city's starting food supply since one kind can be found everywhere. Potatoes were, at one time, only found in the New World, and rice came from Asia. That is why they are their own commodities here. The fact is that we rarely consider how different things were before 1500 and how much things changed as far as people's diets afterward. Look at Ireland. They took the Potato, a strictly New World crop, and it became the most important thing they grew. Without such an exchange of food, many places could not have experienced the growths that they did. As I said before, a city importing or growing either of these will have an ample food supply.
Cattle is on there because it was a booming industry in the United States for a period in the 1800s, and because it is an important part of people's diets today, and at one time was a luxury for many people. The other reason is because of the fact that horses and elephants are there and it makes sense to include other animals that have been important to societies.
Natural rubber actually was used until a synthetic version became widely used after World War II.
I was unsure about Paper and thought I'd wait until after I got a response to add it. Uranium will be added as well. I had considered adding a Computers or Electronics commodity, but it is manufactured and all of the other manufactured products come from natural ones. I would need some way to control who can and can not supply Electronics. Third world countries can not simply begin providing the world with its supply of Windows and more importantly Civilization games.
Gold and Silver: I really just meant that these should be resource tiles on the map that generate income.
I would have added more elements like Aluminium, but I wasn't sure what a practical use could be for them in game terms. In other words, what units would they be used for? What benefit do they have to serve the masses directly? If I get some good answers, I'll add them.
Good points, about running out of resources. It should definitely be true about Coal, Oil, Uranium, Copper, Gold, and Silver.
I would add Recreational Drugs to the luxuries, but I'm not sure if the people at Firaxis want us civers to be growing vast fields of Cannabis. 
[This message has been edited by Dom Pedro II (edited October 29, 2000).]
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Builder
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one word for all of you : "simplicity".
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Dom Pedro II
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The College of New Jersey
Nov 1999
time: 05:12
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Tonic, the whole point of the Elephant and Horse commodities is because elephants and horses aren't found worldwide. I was rather irritated by the fact that on a World Map, the Americans and Sioux were building horse and elephant units when the Americas don't even have them. So in this game, to build either of those units, you need a supply of horses or a city next to a horse terrain or ranch. (The reason for the ranch is that otherwise horses would only be available to a civilization on the Asian steppe.)
And also about the terrain specials. I never actually said it because I thought it was assumed, but each of the naturally occuring commodities has its own terrain special. Only wood, fish, clay, and stone don't because they are found almost everywhere in their own terrain types. The others are harder to come by, and some are only found in certain parts of the world.
By the way, I still need a means of containing the production of consumer and electronic goods if anyone has any suggestions...
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Dom Pedro II
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The College of New Jersey
Nov 1999
time: 05:12
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crispie, Britain will at least have Iron, Wood, Fish, and Clay. Those are very important resources in the beginning. the British on a world map, they would have to depend heavily on infantry, catapults, and the navy. That has always been the British strongpoint. But for cavalry, you'd have to wait for the Russians to take horses, the French or Germans to acquire them, and then you'd get them. I don't know how a civ would gain the right to build such facilities without having a city with the original resource. Maybe you'd have to buy the rights or steal some specimens??
For the rest of the resources, the Brits will have to do it the ol' fashion way, Conquest. Take those little resource rich places.
I think that some of the first primary resources should be generated from cities regardless of where they are, but the problem is that it makes blockades and sieges less effective. Maybe it should only be 1 unit of each important resource per turn. And they have to be global resources.
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Stuff2
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About the market.
I just want to point out that in developed countries
a big part of the 'goods' are actually services (like getting a haircut). And not to forget that in a totally capitalistic system even education and health care are made for profit.
Also, about raw materials and complex products:
The rich world has got much of our richness beacouse we bought raw materials (and components) sheap from poor countries and sold advanced products , to a high prize, to the poor countries. Nowdays we buy labour sheap and sell expertice for a high prize.
If civ3 ever will have a realistic economic model this has to be represented in some way.
It follows this pattern:
- Natural reasource
- Manufactured reasource
- Manufactured good
- Services
I'll give an example to show what I mean:
- Wood
- Paper (is made of wood)
- Books (is made of paper)
- Education (A service that usually use books)
Personally I think having alot of different categorized 'goods' will make civ3 way too complex.
But it would be great if it could be implemented on a more abstract level. I just don't know how.
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29-10-2000 00:26
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