31-01-2002 06:38									#1
	Civ 3 game design Increase the size of your Attachments

I posted this comment in a reply to another post, so please forgive me if you have read this before.

Let me first say that I am a long time Civ fan. The original Civ hooked me..hard.

I loved Civ 2 even though there were aspects to the game that I disagreed with. Same with Civ 3. (especially the corruption!)

My little point is this:

The point of ANY game is to learn the rules of that game and then devise strategies to win.

Does a chess player complain if he disagrees with the legal movement pattern of the knight or queen? Saying to himself, "If only the knight was allowed to move in this pattern that I think is fair, I could checkmate this clown!"

No, they know the rules and play by them.

Maybe we should all look at Civ3 in that respect? With exceptions to glaring unfairness...


Perhaps the changes to some aspects of play took many players off their stride and forced them to devise new startegies..


Or am I wrong?

	31-01-2002 06:45									#2
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I think most players welcome having to devise new strategies as long as those strategies are rewarding ones. The fact that it's simply better to raze far off conquered cities, for example, is certainly easy to accomodate: Click a button. But is it rewarding? The same for founding a sprawling empire: It's quite easy to ignore the levels of corruption, but is it rewarding? Or war weariness: You can avoid war weariness by A) not getting into wars, which is fine, I guess, though a bit dull or B) end wars quickly, which is sometimes impossible and, in fact, why should you end JUSTIFIED and PROFITABLE wars quickly just to keep citizens from revolting? And take a look at science progression: You can throw pile upon pile of money at research and get no faster results. Sure, this keeps the computer in the game longer, but is it rewarding? It also makes the very few late game techs last longer, but is that the kind of challenge you want: Forced longevity?

You see, those changes aren't very much fun, nor are they rewarding. I think I said it best (if a bit cryptically) when I said:

Civ3 rewards mediocrity.

	31-01-2002 06:52									#3
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 The fact that it's simply better to raze far off conquered cities, for example, is certainly easy to accomodate: Click a button. But is it rewarding? The same for founding a sprawling empire: It's quite easy to ignore the levels of corruption, but is it rewarding?

yes, when you find out later in the game that you have vivid empire of cities that actually do some work instead of just sitting there making tanks every 30 turns

quote: Or war weariness: You can avoid war weariness by A) not getting into wars, which is fine, I guess, though a bit dull or B) end wars quickly, which is sometimes impossible and, in fact,

it was really rewarding on the game i'm currently playing when all my democratic cities turned from riots to happiness after i ended a war with the romans who had just 2 cities on the other side of the planet, allowing me to continue my real war with the americans

	31-01-2002 06:54									#4
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Yeah it's probably important vee to know that yin26 doesn't own the game. There's some wisdom for ya "don't accept strategies from people who don't play the game"!

	31-01-2002 06:55									#5
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So unproductive cities make the game vivid? Curious. And I suppose you can find some rewarding moments when war weariness works as intended, but now you're just focussing on the exception rather than the rule.

Why should a profitable war against a civ that started the war in the first place put your cities into chaos? Sure, if your troops start losing or make no progress, that's different.

	31-01-2002 06:56									#6
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Hey, the newest Yin Groupie showed up! What took so long?

Gee, why don't I play the game anymore? ... beats me!

	31-01-2002 07:01									#7
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 So unproductive cities make the game vivid?

i said the opposite

quote: Why should a profitable war against a civ that started the war in the first place put your cities into chaos?

cause each goverment is supposed to be a balance of good and bad things. if you didnt have war weariness in a democracy, then that game would be a "democracy race"
and because real democracies are not like the US(which for the last 10 years is at all times sending troops to all sorts of places around the world)

	31-01-2002 07:03									#8
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Right. Real democracies hate successful campaigns to dismantle proven aggressors. And cities producing 1 gold make an empire so vivid it's simply blinding.

	31-01-2002 07:54									#9
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I must agree that it is unfair that riots occur when waging a war with a civ that starts one...

perhaps the game should have taken into account whether you are just rampaging across the globe or reacting to an invasion, when deciding whether or not to have the citizens riot..

After all, according to the current civ design, I think that you would have riots in your cities even if you were engaged in a war that started only because the AI decided to conquer you or make dumb demands no matter what...

	31-01-2002 08:15									#10
	Getting back to the point Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

IMHO Civ games are intended to, in most respects, simulate the rise and fall of civilizations as has occurred in our collective history.

We each have our opinions of what should occur if A does B to C. If that doesn't happen we all get a bit miffed.

Board games are more obviously games of strategy with defined rules and I don't believe a comparison can be made with the current mindset. In addition there is no diplomacy in Chess...

With regard to war weariness and corruption I believe these are intended to make war mongering and empire building more difficult. I don't like the way it is currently managed, perhaps making war weariness cause corruption (loss of production) and containing corruption with police or military units. But I don't now how that would affect game balance.

	31-01-2002 08:24									#11
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No no no. Cities will not riot if you fight a defensive war, but once you fight an offensive one and start taking enemy cities, when your enemy start begging for a peace treaty but you rejects, cities will then start to riot.

Do you think Allied cities would not fall into disorder if Hitler was willing to negotiate a peace treaty but Allied forces keep rolling into Germany?

	31-01-2002 08:24									#12
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For those of you just joining us

yin26 doesn't play or own the game he's describing

Reader discretion is advised

	31-01-2002 08:31									#13
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then why the hell he talks about Civ3 anyway. He knows nothing about it.

	31-01-2002 08:33									#14
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Good point,

I wasn't really trying to compare a game that is supposed to simulate empire building with a board game...sorry if i didn't express myself correctly.

My main point was in comparing how people are reacting to the rules of civ3, not the overall goal of the game...

Such as how some are disgruntled over how they think that a courthouse should decrease corruption by X amount, but Infogrames made it so that it only decreases it by Y amount...(I count myself as one of the disgruntled...)

Just like someone might say that there is no friggin' way that that lousy pawn could have taken my Knight...rules of movement or not! In the real world my knight would have kicked his butt!

In other words, you can't think that the way that you see the world should have unfolded, is the way it would have.

You know...I just had a revelation....the reason Civ will NEVER be perfect to everyone is the same reason that there will NEVER be peace on Earth...


Everyone has their own vision of what should happen in the world and of what is right and just or unjust...People fight over it every day.


Cut the designers of Civ some slack...After all, It must be impossible to create a game that simulates history in a way that will make EVERYONE say "yeah, that is the way it would have happened."

	31-01-2002 08:34									#15
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quote: Originally posted by zergling then why the hell he talks about Civ3 anyway. He knows nothing about it.

My favorite diagnosis was dumb-ass-idness.

	31-01-2002 08:37									#16
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quote: Originally posted by MOHonor For those of you just joining us yin26 doesn't play or own the game he's describing Reader discretion is advised

You already pointed out your 'disclaimer'. Say it again, perhaps *this* time it will be relevent.

	31-01-2002 08:37									#17
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As a matter of fact Hitler tried to negoitiate peace with the West for years.

It is no use for you folks to try to gang up on Yin. His truths are self evident and all you are doing is mumbling with your foot in your own mouth.

	31-01-2002 08:49									#18
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quote: why should you end JUSTIFIED and PROFITABLE wars quickly just to keep citizens from revolting?

It strikes me that anything that is causing the citizens to revolt (and thus production and commerce to stop) isn't very PROFITABLE at all.

	31-01-2002 09:09									#19
	No chance for peace Support Apolyton

Vee4473 I must apologise as my original post was unclear. What you replied with - "Everyone has their own vision of what should happen in the world and of what is right and just or unjust...People fight over it every day." - was closer to the point I was trying to make. You just did it much better. Even one person's vision of History is different from another - based on Culture, moral values, personal interests etc. (even what movies they have seen)

Therefore the developers must create a game that is fun to play rather than a simulation. Personally I don't find the game fun to play after the first 3000 years because of curruption and war weariness...

	31-01-2002 09:13									#20
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right on YC

I too find the game boring at times, but yet i still like playing!!!