01-02-2002 07:20									#1
	Starting Wars Remove this text

I need some strategies for starting wars between other countries - leaving myself uninvolved.

Also, I started a new game today, as the Babylonians. Large map, 7 other opponents. I found myself on a fairly large island - along with seven sources of silk. I got control of the entire island with my nine cities, with the exception of three squares along my southern coast. China came along - why do I always have problems with the Chinese - and established a city right where I didn't want them. I was built up militarily, so I declared war, and since I attacked with four swordsmen and four bowmen, and they only had one spearman for defense, I razed their city and took back my land without any casualties.

However, I keep trying to establish an ROP with Greece. Before my war, I was able to do it. Afterwards, no dice. The Greeks refuse every attempt. I've even tried sweetening the pot a bit for them, with no luck. Since I declared war on the Chinese, am I being ostracized by the AI?

	01-02-2002 09:01									#2
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Attacking other civs without declaring war first and razing cities will damage your reputation. When you have less then perfect reputation other civs will not be willing to sign ROP's with you.

	01-02-2002 09:47									#3
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Sometimes a bad reputation can be a good thing. In a renegotiation of a peace treaty, I can usually bully the AI into signing ROP's or military alliances against whomever I want. Of course this only works once every 20 turns, but thats how long a ROP or military alliance lasts anyways. I couldn't say for sure, but it seems that the more bloodthirsty of a game I've played, the better the deals I get. This may just be because those extra wars are making the AI weaker, and me stronger though. Either way, reputation isn't a big deal in the game unless you're shooting for a diplomatic victory.

As far as I know there is no sure way to passively get the AI involved in a war with each other. The best chance is to give a few closely packed cities away, one to each Civ you want to war, and hope their close proximity to each other creates some friction.

	01-02-2002 11:41									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Sometimes a bad reputation can be a good thing. In a renegotiation of a peace treaty, I can usually bully the AI into signing ROP's or military alliances against whomever I want. Of course this only works once every 20 turns, but thats how long a ROP or military alliance lasts anyways. I couldn't say for sure, but it seems that the more bloodthirsty of a game I've played, the better the deals I get. This may just be because those extra wars are making the AI weaker, and me stronger though. Either way, reputation isn't a big deal in the game unless you're shooting for a diplomatic victory.

Power is more important than reputation. Reputation only seems to affect me when I'm both being a jerk and someone else has a bigger army - if I've got the biggest force on the block, I can be in a state of permanent annoyance and furiousness with everyone else, but they'll do as I say and give me ridiculous deals for peace (And for re-negotiating peace! This is really important! Bully them into giving you things every 20 turns, just to NOT go to war with them!).

Reputation only matters to me when I'm trying to play nice. In that case, I try to be at a state of polite or at least cautious with everyone.

	02-02-2002 05:17									#5
	Plant a spy Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I found that trying to plant a spy is a good way to start a war. In my last game my spy planting was caught 3 times. Each time the other CIV declared war on me for it.

	02-02-2002 07:41									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Does a failure at planting a spy affect reputation?

	02-02-2002 07:53									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I just ran across a very interesting war-starting tactic.

I remember reading an earlier post by someone that the AI takes workers into account when determining military strength. He primarily used this as a way to deter war, by building a worker force enough to scare off enemies.

In my latest game i had finshed developing my nation til RR, so i sent all my workers to my captial and traded them all to my nearest neighbor for tech/gold/luxuries. We're talking 24+ workers here.

Well, i guess the AI thought all of a sudden that he had an amazing army, because he declared a suicidal war on me. I outnumbered his cities 3 to 1, i was about get Destroyers on my next tech while he was still using Hoplites and Swordsmen.

In retrospect, sort of a dirty trick, since once i pulverized him i just captured all my workers back (sigh).

	02-02-2002 14:21									#8
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*LOL* ktaek!! Thats a classic!!

Perhaps this will force Soren to make a function that realistically determines ones military strength.

	02-02-2002 17:45									#9
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There was a post a while ago with a nice method for this:

Send some settlers to an island and build some simple cities, I guess resources on the island would help too. Then give a city to each AI you want to have a war, they will love you for giving them a city and will fight to get control of the island. Or something to that effect, i may have missed something

	03-02-2002 21:55									#10
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Whatever happened to the the "I demand tribute for my patience" line?

All the other civs can make a demand that may or may not lead to war, but I can't do anything of that sort, at least nothing that works. I have yet to have a civ declare war when I make a demand. It would be nice to have some way to goad the other civ into attacking first, but there seems to be very few options for doing so, especially when you are more powerful than they are.

	04-02-2002 07:38									#11
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If they have units in your territory, that's the best way. Make demands and offering insulting trades until they get mad and then demand they move their troops. Of course, if you're a lot stronger they tend not to have troops in your territory anyway, most of the time.

	04-02-2002 10:22									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Ironikinit If they have units in your territory, that's the best way. Make demands and offering insulting trades until they get mad and then demand they move their troops. Of course, if you're a lot stronger they tend not to have troops in your territory anyway, most of the time.

But even then, you're starting the war by attacking them. Unless like you say you're stronger so they don't come around anyway. In my current game, I've quite an arsenal poised and ready to attack, but I want them to make the first move. I don't want a bad rep with the other civs. But I really have no way to anger them enough to start a war. Even in the diplomacy screen, if I demand they hand over something or else, they never take the initiative, it's always me that has to declare war.

	04-02-2002 12:44									#13
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Hopefully, when you demand that they remove their units from your territory after insulting them until they're furious, they'll declare war.

	04-02-2002 14:31									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Does a failure at planting a spy affect reputation?

I believe not. You can try unsuccesfully plant a spy even 10 times and if civ was polite to you it remains polite. Although if the civ was annoyed or furious first attempt may end with war .

	04-02-2002 15:31									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Whatever happened to the the "I demand tribute for my patience" line? All the other civs can make a demand that may or may not lead to war, but I can't do anything of that sort, at least nothing that works. I have yet to have a civ declare war when I make a demand. It would be nice to have some way to goad the other civ into attacking first, but there seems to be very few options for doing so, especially when you are more powerful than they are.

When you propose a trade, try only asking for goods (gold, tech, cities, whatever). Without offering anything in return, you are demanding tribute.
You can easily get the AI to become furious with you doing this, although I have never been able to goad it into war this way (although I have made several outrageous offers

Perhaps demanding their troops withdraw would get you the last bit of way, have to try that out the next time.

	04-02-2002 19:18									#16
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Try infuriating them with unreasonable trade deals, and then have a settler start a city on your enemy's border. Leave the city unguarded as bait. Or if you're really desperate vacate a border city with improvements and population. Signing those MPP's may be a deterrance...?

So attacking w/o declaring war first is a crime? Do I have to wait until my next turn to attack? That sucks. That's the equivalent of CNN showing up on the beach to film your invasion.

	04-02-2002 20:19									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Ironikinit Hopefully, when you demand that they remove their units from your territory after insulting them until they're furious, they'll declare war.

But when I'm strong, they don't have any units in my territory. If they know I can kick their butt, I don't see a single one. It's only when I'm weak, and don't want a war that they come around. There just isn't enough options for pissing them off.

	04-02-2002 21:12									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Willem But when I'm strong, they don't have any units in my territory.

In my most recent game, I had a Roman galley dancing around my cities, clearly itching for a fight. I had left the Romans with only two island cities, while I had control of two continents. I was in the middle of shuttling Panzers around, while the Romans were still working on middle ages techs, so I first just ignored the galley. When I did start demanding that it leave my borders, I got a response that was something "So you do have a backbone after all. We were beginning to wonder." Despite demanding its removal every turn, it stayed in my territority. After about twenty turns of this, they finally began to automatically moved outside my borders after my demands. However, each turn they'd be right back in my borders. After at least ten turns of this, the Romans declared war on me. So I stomped their spearman with my Panzers. What were they thinking?! That said, that's the only time I can think of a weaker civ not be very respectful. I'd guess that the AI code must have decided that the Romans were hopelessly behind and decided to make things more interesting.

	04-02-2002 22:11									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Platypus "So you do have a backbone after all. We were beginning to wonder."

Ha ha! The AI delivered that line flawlessly. The AI has done the same thing to me too , but I never read what the AI says to me to catch such wit.

	05-02-2002 01:46									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Willem But even then, you're starting the war by attacking them.

Not really. If you demand that they get out of your territory often enough, and are already angry with you, sooner or later, they'll declare war on you. The best of all worlds.

1) Your happiness level goes up.

2) Your reputation doesn't get hurt.

3) You still get the first shot at his units, since he declared war during your turn.

Mind you, this will only work if you're doing other things to anger that particular leader. One time I managed to provoke a civilization from polite all the way to almost-drooling-on-self anger, and then got a war declaration with 10 or so demands, with an opponent that my military advisor said was weak compared to mine, and who was attacking with swordsmen and horsemen against cavalry and riflemen.