04-02-2002 08:14									#1
	Anyone set up a slave trade before? Suffering from ads?

The thought came to me today as I purchased several workers from the Chinese. If you have plenty of workers and especially if you're an industrious civ, why not sell off captured workers for profit to weaker civs?

For example, imagine you find a fairly backward civ on a crappy island quite near your home island. You don't want to build many cities there as the land is really poor, but this little civ will be a real pushover. Well, why not send some units in just to capture their workers/raze their cities, ship the workers off to your capital and sell them off? Then you could keep a few around or ship in your own workers to develop up the island or take any resources there. I'm not sure how much you could make from this, but you could probably generate a tidy profit at relatively little cost. I'd be interested to know if anyone's tried this and if it's worth it.

	04-02-2002 12:12									#2
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ewwwwww!!

good idea.

ER

	04-02-2002 19:33									#3
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Yes, it's worth it, provided you don't start the war in a way that hurts your reputation. You can net piles of gold for workers, tho you may need to offer only several to every civ to get the most gold for them. I've only done this in two games, so I don't know what else was in AI consideration. Maybe they had too many already - they'd pay for a few, but not the same per-unit price for 15.

I started doing it only because I had too many workers and not enough ships to sail them off to my hinterlands. I started using them to sweeten trade offers, then just selling them outright. Then you actually get some gold for your conquest. (Instead of that message "We've captured Giza and 1 gold! )

	04-02-2002 22:44									#4
	Got spare money?

When I get pushed into a war, I go for a total victory. They killed my one warrior, now they are all dead (Carthage anyone?).

Usually, at the end, I get about 20+ workers. For about 10 - 15 turns I use them speed up improvements (usually I shift-A them, they deserve to be tools for what they did to me! ). After-which I look for a neady buyer. I sell them for about 100 to 200 lump sum per slave worker.

Sometimes if I feel like it, I'll just select a slave worker, and press the 'D' key. I release a lot of anger by doing this .

If you want to be really evil, kill all the slave workers as soon as you get them from a razed city

	04-02-2002 23:29									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

Late in the game that is what I do, disband them. It is too much trouble to run them back to city and I do not need them. I can't sell as I am at war with the AI.

	04-02-2002 23:55									#6
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I do just the opposite at the beginning of the game. When I meet an AI early I check the diplo screen every turn. If it is early enough into the game, the AI capital will have 2 workers for me to buy (not at the same time) for 30 golds each. Then I add them to my capital to get a size 6 worker depot quickly. Think about it this way: a worker can become 40 shields. So spend 30 golds for a worker is well worth the money. Of course capturing them for free would be better.

	05-02-2002 03:58									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu I do just the opposite at the beginning of the game. When I meet an AI early I check the diplo screen every turn. If it is early enough into the game, the AI capital will have 2 workers for me to buy (not at the same time) for 30 golds each. Then I add them to my capital to get a size 6 worker depot quickly. Think about it this way: a worker can become 40 shields. So spend 30 golds for a worker is well worth the money. Of course capturing them for free would be better.

That sounds great. But what do you mean by "a worker can become 40 shields" ? Having two extra citizens for hundreds of turns worths a lot, and establishing a size 6 worker depot could be a game breaker, but I still don't see where the 40-shields come from.

	05-02-2002 05:42									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well, a rush converts one population point to 40 shields, that's what I meant since a worker can be added to a city to become a population point.

	05-02-2002 06:51									#9
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I have a few questions (Xin Yu or anyone):

1) Do purchased workers work at the the full rate, unlike captured workers? Are they now patriots or still foreign workers?
2) How does 30 gold compare to 40 shields (e.g. 1 gold:1 shield)?
3) Isn't there a benefit to buying workers instead of pop rushing in that your city will be happier?

	05-02-2002 07:26									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu I do just the opposite at the beginning of the game. When I meet an AI early I check the diplo screen every turn. If it is early enough into the game, the AI capital will have 2 workers for me to buy (not at the same time) for 30 golds each. Then I add them to my capital to get a size 6 worker depot quickly. Think about it this way: a worker can become 40 shields. So spend 30 golds for a worker is well worth the money. Of course capturing them for free would be better.

Yes I do this too (early on anyway, not just to strengthen myself but it weakens the ai considerably, something I learned from MP, weaken your opponent in any way possible) but later on I've been trying a republic strategy where gold is more useful for rushing thus I sold them off.

	05-02-2002 17:38									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

If you disband units in cities, you get some of the shield cost of the unit reurned to your new production and I guess this goes for workers, too, though I haven't tried.

	05-02-2002 18:26									#12
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You only get 1/4 of the cost of the unit though, thus 3 shields for a worker (rounded up), selling it would probably be more economical.

	05-02-2002 18:39									#13
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Ah!

	05-02-2002 21:48									#14
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Purest Warrior If you disband units in cities, you get some of the shield cost of the unit reurned to your new production and I guess this goes for workers, too, though I haven't tried.

You can't dispand workers and settlers while they are on a city tile, you can only add them to the population of that city. This can be dangerous since if you do this on a city that is stagnant, you will lose those new pop points due to overpopulation and lake of food.

If I'm on the map and moving my settler or worker around, and an enemy unit (which I'm at war with) comes close enough, its better to dispand that settler/worker then for the enemy to capture them IMHO.

Late in the game when I have plenty of workers, and if the civ I am at war with really tict me off, I just dispand every worker I get from a razed city. Think of it as mass executions .

	06-02-2002 06:32									#15
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I see that Xin Yu is mostly talking about pop rushing, which I don't do (isn't that sort of a cheat?).

But I did try buying about 10 foreign workers last night, just to help me clear the massive jungles all over my (shared) continent. I didn't really figure out how fast they work, but I will assume as fast as my native workers. So, trying to come up with a reasonable cost estimate for a worker:

Typical Exchange Rate:

1 shield = 3 gold
10 shields = 30 gold (typical foreign worker cost)

Typical Worker Cost:

1 worker = 10 shields and loss of 1 pop
1 pop ~= 5 turns x (1 shield + 3 gold) = 5 shields + 15 gold

Total worker cost = 15 shields + 15 gold ~= 60 gold

So, if this is about right, then the 30 gold for a worker would seem like a pretty good deal. Now, if they only work half as fast as a native worker, then there is no advantage other than he is available immediately, which of course is worth something also (e.g., 5 turns of improving).

	06-02-2002 07:31									#16
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: So, if this is about right, then the 30 gold for a worker would seem like a pretty good deal. Now, if they only work half as fast as a native worker, then there is no advantage other than he is available immediately, which of course is worth something also (e.g., 5 turns of improving).

That would only be 2½ turns of improving, assuming they are half as efficient.

Speaking of..:
Last night I captured three English workers, and it seemed to me they were working at different levels of efficiency (i.e. one worked a third as fast as mine another one half as fast). I didn't have time to check it, though, so maybe I'm wrong.

Did anyone else have this experience or was I high on coffee?

(Maybe it's just the English special unit: Civilly disobedient captured workers. )

	06-02-2002 10:35									#17
	It's all about QUALITY Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Purest Warrior Speaking of..: Last night I captured three English workers, and it seemed to me they were working at different levels of efficiency (i.e. one worked a third as fast as mine another one half as fast). I didn't have time to check it, though, so maybe I'm wrong.

No, it's possible if one of them was captured by the English from an industrious civ. Captured workers IMO keep that trait, which is why it's worth keeping industrious slaves when you aren't but not the other way around.

	06-02-2002 12:01									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Shaka II Do purchased workers work at the the full rate, unlike captured workers? Are they now patriots or still foreign workers?

They're considered captured workers: they work a half speed, retain their old nationality, show up on the "Captured Worker" display on the Military Advisor, and cost no gold to maintain. Same as a worker you capture militarily (but without the war).

	06-02-2002 17:43									#19
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I never sell workers. Instead, I add them to my cities where they produce shields and commerce every turn forever instead of one time lump gold bonus.

Best workers to add are those whose home civilization has been destroyed. Then they act just like my own citizens because they can't say "Stop the aggression against our mother country" anymore..

If I am industrious, I usually end up adding all foreign workers to my cities. My own workers gets the job done more quickly anyway and I don't mind the 1 gold maintenance fee per worker. Further, it reduces a bit the tedious micromanagement of workers. Putting them to "auto" just makes them railroad all the useless tundra tiles.

Btw, I also buy workers at the beginning of the game where the expansion is crusial.

	06-02-2002 18:13									#20
	Diplomacy and Workers Increase the size of your Attachments

Maybe I'm wrong, but one thing I've noticed is when you build your own workers, the AI sees these guys as military units and it helps to strengthen your "power". When I've set up worker factories, the messages "Compared to these guys, blah blah blah" become more and more in my favor. So, I think it would be great to spend only 30 gold and have a free worker (or 1/2 worker speed-wise) for the rest of the game, but it is also good to have a self-made worker boom to encourage your trade efforts and prevent surprise attacks or declarations of war.

I really like the idea of trading early for the workers ... it always pisses me off in 3750 BC when I walk up to the enemy capitol and see 8 or so units mulling around ... I even had Russia bring all of it's military in a stack right into my capitol city once right after I produced my first warrior!!!! That was like 3600 BC, and game over!

One last thought, with a size 6 worker factory, you could see that as 30 gold/turn if you are trading away your workers, if the AI keeps buying them. AND ... is it good for the AI to have workers of your nationality for any possible culture-flipping? Or if they declare war on you do your citizens in their cities get upset? Does anybody know if they add your workers to their cities?

OR, what if you traded alot of your workers to a civ you are planning to conquer shortly thereafter? You would be capturing your workers back, and draining their economy right before the war ... , or helping them pop-rush ... how does the AI handle pop-rushing?

All the best
- JFB

Last edited by JFB on 06-02-2002 at 18:22

	06-02-2002 18:25									#21
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I always buy workers from other civs when they are available. I will use foreign workers to pop-rush temples and such in my border cities. If you try this with a size 3 city, make sure 2 of the workers in the city are your own. I have added two foreign workers of different nationalities to a size one city before, pop-rushed a temple and wound up with a size one city with a foreign worker in it.

When there are two continents it seems that only the civs on my continent will offer me workers, however I am able to sell workers to civs on the other continent. Strange. Has anyone else seen this happen?

	06-02-2002 22:19									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Marko Polo I never sell workers. Instead, I add them to my cities where they produce shields and commerce every turn forever instead of one time lump gold bonus.

I did that once... once. My one city revolted and went back to their nationalaty side. I had an enemy city right next to my captial. I took it back by force, but I totaly lost on the next turn when that civ (i think it was the russians) ICBM me into next week!

That's why I say use, sell them, or "cleanse" the world from that barbaric civ that started the war!

	08-02-2002 00:08									#23
	Remove this text

another use for workers would be to see how large a city one could make before the game went all buggy. mmmmmm, size 1000. hmmm, if you could keep up a large enough supply of workers from conquest, it might work. and think of the science beakers you could be getting. . . . . . .. heh heh.

	10-02-2002 08:05									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Kc7mxo another use for workers would be to see how large a city one could make before the game went all buggy. mmmmmm, size 1000. hmmm, if you could keep up a large enough supply of workers from conquest, it might work. and think of the science beakers you could be getting. . . . . . .. heh heh.

... or taxmen

	10-02-2002 17:43									#25
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In civ2 they went up to size 127, dunno bout civ3. The game will probably crash when you get up to 40

	10-02-2002 22:00									#26
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A size 300+ city is certainly possible. Someone did it in one of the Apolyton Tournament games, prompting me to build one myself. The limit is probably going to be a power of 2 (minus 1). Most likely 16 bit (65535). Of course it could easily be 32 bit (4294967295) or any other arbitrary value.

	11-02-2002 15:03									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson A size 300+ city is certainly possible. Someone did it in one of the Apolyton Tournament games, prompting me to build one myself. The limit is probably going to be a power of 2 (minus 1). Most likely 16 bit (65535). Of course it could easily be 32 bit (4294967295) or any other arbitrary value.

Civ2 had some artificial limits put into it (like the limit on gold and a few others), but yeah, it seems likely to be a 16 bit variable used to store city size. I'd like to see the size 300 city game, can you post a link?

	11-02-2002 18:25									#28
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I no longer have the save, I have a game with several hundred workers that I am playing now... I'll set up the largest city I can and post it here a bit later.

	12-02-2002 01:33									#29
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I edited the default .bic to set this city up easier, giving workers a population value of 25. Otherwise I would have been spending forever activating workers, moving them to a city, and building. The save game was too big for the 500K limit, even zipped

Attachment: bigcity.jpg
This has been downloaded 400 time(s).

	12-02-2002 02:27									#30
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Judging from the savegame format the limit is a signed 32 bit number. (2^31-1 max)