04-02-2002 14:03									#1
	Descending into anarchy Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Aaaaaaarghhhh !!!!!!
I'm going nuts !!!!!!!!!

I'm playing a game where I'm currently in war with the Persians.
They started the war and I managed to conquer some of their cities. Thats all very fine, but now I'd like to make peace with them, but they refuse to speak to me, resulting in my nation descending into anarchy, since I have democracy.

I've tried different things like not fighing with them att all the last few (3) rounds before it happens, but nothing seems to make them want to see me. How the h... am I ever going to make peace with them if I can't propose it ?

So, I ask you; What am I going to do ?
I know I could just swich to another goverment, but none of the others seem to please me.
Is there any way of avoiding this, possibly with editing the scenario ?

JAW

	04-02-2002 15:28									#2
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Making peace with other civs is not so easy anymore. You have several options to handle the war weariness. I will give only a few suggestions, all this is better described in the strategy forum.

- Try to spend money for luxury, 10-20% helps a lot.
- Try to grab the Universal suffrage (may be in your next game).
- Build Police stations, at least in your 12+ cities.
- Get allies (bribe them if you need) and try to wipe out your enemy as soon as possible.
- If you can't stand it anymore, switch to communism or monarchy. But be aware to prebuild enough units for warfare, unless you are playing with a religious civilization.

	04-02-2002 17:00									#3
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-How does it help spending money on luxury ? Is there a connection between happiness, and how long I can stay in a war without descending into anarchy ?

-I've allready got universial suffrage.

-I've got police stations in allmost all my cities.

-It's (close to) impossible to wipe out an entire civilization (and especially a big one like this) in 6-7 turns.

JAW

	04-02-2002 18:13									#4
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quote: Originally posted by jaw -How does it help spending money on luxury ? Is there a connection between happiness, and how long I can stay in a war without descending into anarchy ?

Luxury (done either with luxury resources or by spending a part of your income) makes content citizens happy. You need at least as much happy citizens as you have unhappy, to keep the city from revolting. If a war starts in democracy, you have a short happiness boost (just a few turns), after which the war weariness starts growing with every turn a bit more. Hence, you have to check your people's happiness (in the F1-screen) after each turn and look for every city the balance happy to unhappy citizens. If there are more unhappy in a single or a few cities, you may handle this by adding entertainers. But if it concerns you whole empire (probably it will!), you should increase the luxury spending. I've heard people to spend up to 40% for luxuries.

In a war in democracy, you seldom are lucky to keep your citizens content for more than, say, 15-20 turns though. No matter who started the war, you should consider to switch to another government (monarchy or communism, both have their good and bad sides), if the war weariness gets out of control.

PS (edited): If you leave your soldiers home (defend, but don't attack), your people are a bit more content. But not much.

	04-02-2002 18:39									#5
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But my problem is not the individual cities experiencing civil disorder.
I keep them happy using both luxuries (30-40 %) and entertainers. While having a luxuryrate that high is a problem since it slows my sciencedevelopment down, I'm able to cope with it.

The problem is, that after, say, 6-7 turns my entire civilization descends into anarchy for some rounds, whereafter I have to choose which government I want (ecxactly as when you change government, except I don't choose to. It happens "by it self".

JAW

	04-02-2002 19:28									#6
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quote: Originally posted by jaw The problem is, that after, say, 6-7 turns my entire civilization descends into anarchy for some rounds, whereafter I have to choose which government I want (ecxactly as when you change government, except I don't choose to. It happens "by it self"

So choose monarchy or communism next time, and try to finish the persians ASAP.

	04-02-2002 21:46									#7
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You don't necessarily have to wipe them out completely, though that sometimes is the case. If you can give him/her a good ass kicking, taking out some of it's cities etc., they might be willing to talk to you about a peace treaty. Might! Otherwise, switching governments is your only option. The War Weariness is just going to get worse as long as the war drags on.

	05-02-2002 01:12									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Willem If you can give him/her a good ass kicking, taking out some of it's cities etc., they might be willing to talk to you about a peace treaty. Might!

My experience is, the later the game goes, the harder is it to make peace. May be the AI wants to hurt you more, knowing you're in Republic/Democracy. Also, different civs seem to have a different approach. Making peace with Gandhi is often possible, while Liz doesn't forgive you (even if she attacked first) and you have to destroy England completely.

	05-02-2002 03:47									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph My experience is, the later the game goes, the harder is it to make peace. May be the AI wants to hurt you more, knowing you're in Republic/Democracy. Also, different civs seem to have a different approach. Making peace with Gandhi is often possible, while Liz doesn't forgive you (even if she attacked first) and you have to destroy England completely.

I don't know about Gandhi. I had a game where I was razing his cities one after the other and he still refused to negotiate peace.

	05-02-2002 04:10									#10
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Aaaaaaah

Just having a nice war (me = German Democracy, have Universal Suffrage and Police in most cities), allied the whole World against France (they attacked my allies the Zulus). Speed is the formula. 4th turn of war and 1/3 of France is already gone, Paris is disconnected from the road network, thus making the whole France burning in disorders, 4 carriers with bombers and 8 battleships along the coast, and the German Panzers are rolling . A hilarious UU . And my people love me (so far).

Joan looks so powerful sexy when she's furious

Wars in democracy are possible, assumed you are strong.

	05-02-2002 22:28									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Willem I don't know about Gandhi. I had a game where I was razing his cities one after the other and he still refused to negotiate peace.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems razing cities only makes the situation worse. I've found after razing a city late in the game (Industrial or beyond) the AI won't speak to me at all unless I conquer another city AND have amassed troops near some other city. The only civs I have tried this against are Russia, India, and Babylon. I'm not sure if its a general AI pattern or just something that has happened to me by chance (4 times).

	06-02-2002 04:15									#12
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Ok guys, my war is over, France is gone.

First I noticed war weariness in the 6th turn (in the 5th I didn't check), it was about 20% among the unhappy citizens. I own neither the Sixtine nor JSBachs, but have 7 luxuries (5 own, 2 traded). War was over after the 10th turn without having to raise luxury spending. Had civil disorder twice in one city, that had not yet finished it's cathedral.

Speed and luxuries are the formula for wars in democracy.

	06-02-2002 13:34									#13
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Managed to negotiate peace too, and even got 51 gold/turn out of it (+10 cities).
Same round the romans attacked me, but hey, it will be a while untill my cities become discontent.
Conquering a civilization in a matter of a few rounds is not that easy when you're playing emperor level on a huge map and its late in the game. Every civilization have got +75 cities......
Just seems to me, that it's a mistake that your civ descends into anarchy before you even have a chance of negociating peace...
I managed to get through my peirod of anarchy though. It took 4 turns. I checked how long time it would have taken to change government the usual way; 7 turns !

JAW

	06-02-2002 14:44									#14
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On my last game (Emperor) I didn't get any wonders except Universal Sufferage, but I found that in democracy I could stay at war permanently with 0-10% luxury rate as long as you had built marketplaces, banks, temples, cathedrals and collosseum, the last one is crucial as I don't normally build it but if you want to have a long war build it first then go to war.

Just my experience,

Cossack

	26-03-2002 23:01									#15
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quote: Originally posted by jaw But my problem is not the individual cities experiencing civil disorder. I keep them happy using both luxuries (30-40 %) and entertainers. While having a luxuryrate that high is a problem since it slows my sciencedevelopment down, I'm able to cope with it. The problem is, that after, say, 6-7 turns my entire civilization descends into anarchy for some rounds, whereafter I have to choose which government I want (ecxactly as when you change government, except I don't choose to. It happens "by it self". JAW

EXACTLY!

This is happening to me now. I am at war with everyone - everyone else started it (seems they don't like me being somewhat ahead of them!). Anyway, I fell into disorder after about 10 turns, then after 6 looooong turns of anarchy, I went back to Democracy.

* I have luxuries at 40%
* I have Universal Suffrage
* I have police stations in most of the larger cities (>12)
* NO CITIES ARE IN DISORDER THEMSELVES

I am playing v1.16f.

Nevertheless, I am headed back to anarchy. Nobody talks to me (this is well-documented), despite the fact that I am stomping them out of existence.

My objection is this: I understand war-weariness, happiness, etc. I am taking steps to control them. HOWEVER, in NO CITY are there more unhappy people than happy people. I have MANAGED happiness effectively - people are content. There is no disorder anywhere. Yet, I'm back in anarchy.

There seems to be a disconnect here, in that the determination that I am in civil disorder is not based on any apparent data that is available to me in the game. I don't mind the punitive war-weariness, but I am overcoming it, and still I am penalized.

Thoughts, anyone?

Eric

	28-03-2002 04:05									#16
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quote: Originally posted by MisManager My objection is this: I understand war-weariness, happiness, etc. I am taking steps to control them. HOWEVER, in NO CITY are there more unhappy people than happy people. I have MANAGED happiness effectively - people are content. There is no disorder anywhere. Yet, I'm back in anarchy.

You may have made your citizens content by adding Entertainers and juggling your luxury rate, but the underlying problem is still there. All you've done is put a bandage on the issue of war weariness. At a certain point, you just can't appease your citizens anymore, and you'll either have to switch governments or end the war.

A good real life example would be the Vietnam War. The protests and discontent against it kept growing and growing, until the US administration had no choice but to end the war. It was either that or face escalating civil disorder. It's either victory abroad or peace at home, you can't always have both.

	29-03-2002 07:48									#17
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Yep, sometimes you cannot avoid it, you will fall into anarchy.

	26-04-2002 02:13									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph - If you can't stand it anymore, switch to communism or monarchy. But be aware to prebuild enough units for warfare, unless you are playing with a religious civilization.

If you're planning on fighting alot, you may want to go to Republic before War Weariness sets in, in many cases Republic is almost as good as Democracy even in peacetime.