05-02-2002 06:29									#1
	The reason for the CTP2 forum's revival? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I don't think I'm the only one who has noticed that the CTP2 forum has picked up noticablely in the last few months, but, maybe I am the first person to wonder why. Now, I'm very happy that this revival has occured because CTP2 is my favorite computer game, however, normally computer games become less popular the older they get and they don't normally experience a resurgence in player interest. What is it that has made CTP2 beat these odds? Why hasn't its fate been like so many other video games (at least not yet)?

We could attribute this new interest to the hard work of our new moderator, Lucutis, who has been doing a fine job of promoting this forum and the game that we love... but... I don't think that would tell us the total story.

So my question is what is the cause of this new interest? Is it just a trickle down effect from Civ3's marketing machine? Is it because so many fans have been so dissatisfied (to date) by the whole Civ3 experience and are looking for an alternative? Or perhaphs people are only now figuring out that CTP2 exists, that it can (and has) been modded, and that it really was well designed after all (if not well implimented).

I'm curious about the anwser to this question because I think there is a lot to learn from it. After all if you can figure out the key to a game's long term success then what game company wouldn't be interested? I myself have several theories but I'm going to wait before speaking so that I don't bias anyone's opinion before others get a chance to speak. So please chime in with your own reasons.

	05-02-2002 08:40									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

It's probably a combination of things as you have hinted at. From my own point of view CTP2 is the 'only' choice of a reasonably new tbs on the market that offers multiplayer.While i enjoy AOE and other rts games for a while, in multiplayer mode they just become a click-fest which doesn't really give the player much strategic scope.Civ2 is a great game, its just so old now and it looks it! Civ3? well i don't have it and won't untill it sorts itself out and has a multiplayer function.AI is all very well, but untill my boss is a computer and i'm just a worker in a borg-like collective then the only real(fair) challange is human vs human in any computer game. Also now that CTP2 has some great and easy to install mods(hear that everyone...EASY,if you can count your fingers you CAN install the Mods ) its got me intrested again.

	05-02-2002 15:07									#3
	Re: The reason for the CTP2 forum's revival? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin We could attribute this new interest to the hard work of our new moderator, Lucutis, who has been doing a fine job of promoting this forum and the game that we love... but... I don't think that would tell us the total story.

Well, I'm glad at least someone noticed (although still not enough to spell my name properly Don't worry, I'm not offended; you would have been the first if you had gotten it right ) but I'm far from the only one promoting this game. IW, hex, Martin and a few other guys are doing the best they can too...

But I agree, it's probably a combination of factors: people come here for Civ3, find out it's a major disappointment, look for an alternative, see us CtPers virorously promote this game, start hearing about it and about its mods and since it's cheap anyway don't mind giving it a(nother) shot...

The key to long term success? One word: customizibility...

	06-02-2002 01:26									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

For me its was the lack of options in Civ3. I missed the Spy war games that went on in CtP2 as well as the other stealth units.

I loved using my Clerics but hated the AI using them.(IT was great that they used them but so anoying in reconverting the city back.) Wich is a good thing

The game seems incomplete. It just couldn't compare to Civ2

Davor

	06-02-2002 02:07									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Alright Lucutus your name has all "u's" in it. I'll remember that from now on. :-)

I think your right customizability is what kept people playing civ2 half a decade after the game came out. CTP2 has an easy to learn scripting language built into it while Civ3 has everything hard coded. This means CTP2 is HIGHLY customizable and this means many modders have stuck with the game even after the critics had moved on.

Since Civ3 isn't very customizable I doubt it will have a life cycle half as long as Civ2 or CTP2. Now if we could only get Activision and Firaxis to work togeather on an "official" Civ: Call to Power 3 then I would be in hog heaven.

	06-02-2002 02:47									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Alright Lucutus your name has all "u's" in it. I'll remember that from now on. :-)

quote: Since Civ3 isn't very customizable I doubt it will have a life cycle half as long as Civ2 or CTP2.

I concur.

quote: Now if we could only get Activision and Firaxis to work togeather on an "official" Civ: Call to Power 3 then I would be in hog heaven.

Well, I'm not too sure about that: Activsion doesn't have any programmers anymore and I'm not too happy with the way Civ3 turned out. Maybe if the Firaxians vow to not release until it's done (CtP2 wasn't done either but at least it had essential features such as MP and scripting) and to make it extremely moddable (as well as hire experienced CtP2 players and modmakers as advisors), then I'd agree to it; otherwise I wouldn't want a Firaxian anywhere near CtP...

	06-02-2002 03:00									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Locutus (as well as hire experienced CtP2 players and modmakers as advisors)

Its about time you guys had a piece of the pie!

	07-02-2002 03:09									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Man, I wish I could play CTP2 right now... Civ3 is still unplayable, Civ2 is ok though it's quickly getting boring. Why did I borrow my CTP2 cd to someone who I haven't seen for a year now

	07-02-2002 21:48									#9
	Support Apolyton

For me,I think it's the fact that people have went out,bought Civ 3,played for a month and just got sick of it then remembered "Hey....CTP 2 wasn't a bad game at all modded" and came back here to involve themselves in much CTP2 goodness

That's my thinking anyway......

Now only if we could get a succession game started

	07-02-2002 22:29									#10
	Got spare money?

I bought CTPI a long time ago, but never went to any of the websites for it. Then I bought CTPII here and also CivIII. I had some questions about both and I knew that I could just go to the website and ask. Well, then I figured that usually the fansites have a little bit better info and replies than the tech support. And this website looked the most professional. So I got an account and the people here have been really helpful

	08-02-2002 02:10									#11
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Assur Man, I wish I could play CTP2 right now... Civ3 is still unplayable, Civ2 is ok though it's quickly getting boring. Why did I borrow my CTP2 cd to someone who I haven't seen for a year now

Assur, thank you for the lead way into my next reason for CTP2's revivial and that is... the game has become dirt CHEAP! Yep, that's right since the game is now a year and something old copies of CTP2 have hit the bargin bin at local retailers and you can pick up a copy of CTP2 for something like $10. Now that's what I call getting your money's worth.

At prices like that people who have lost, sold, or discarded their copy can now pick up a new one and begin playing the modded version of the game. :-)

	08-02-2002 03:05									#12
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Its about time you guys had a piece of the pie!

Actually, Activision already did this with CtP2. Unfortunately they didn't pay us though (Hardly listened either, but the blame for that lies with the bean counters, not with the programmers)

quote: Originally posted by Gazablanca Now only if we could get a succession game started

Well, what's stopping you?
Seriously though, start a thread and I'll have Markos post a newsitem, might just get the ball rolling...

Oerdin,
I agree, price is probably a factor as well.

	12-02-2002 05:00									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Assur, thank you for the lead way into my next reason for CTP2's revivial and that is... the game has become dirt CHEAP! Yep, that's right since the game is now a year and something old copies of CTP2 have hit the bargin bin at local retailers and you can pick up a copy of CTP2 for something like $10. Now that's what I call getting your money's worth. At prices like that people who have lost, sold, or discarded their copy can now pick up a new one and begin playing the modded version of the game. :-)

Well, I've only seen it in one store and it costed $38, which is more than most new games

	12-02-2002 22:00									#14
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I bought my copy for about $6.00

I would never expect to see that kind of price in the US though.

	12-02-2002 23:31									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I picked a copy of CTP2 for $14.95. It comes with a full manual and a large fold out poster that includes many easy to reference items on it. I love the opening movie and the fact that it includes in-game wonder movies.

After the disappointment with Civ3 I'm having another look at the "new" modded CTP2.

	13-02-2002 02:24									#16
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Assur Man, I wish I could play CTP2 right now... Civ3 is still unplayable, Civ2 is ok though it's quickly getting boring. Why did I borrow my CTP2 cd to someone who I haven't seen for a year now

Well...I just walked into Software Etc. in Brooklyn on Sunday, and picked up a new copy of CTP2 for $20.

Mind you, I disagree about Civ3. I'm enjoying it a lot, but then I avoid multiplayer like the plague (I'm in a nearly-terminal time sink already...and I play as slow as a snail). At heart, I'm also not a modder (that's my day job), though I did enjoy HiRes for Civ2.

However, I do agree that Civ3 probably won't have the long-term replayability of Civ2, in part because many of the challenges of the last couple of years in Civ2 are already known, and already solved in Civ3 (OCC, for example).

	13-02-2002 03:28									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Assur Well, I've only seen it in one store and it costed $38, which is more than most new games

You could check around on some of the online retailers; I'm sure you could do much better then $38. Alternatively you could ask ZigZag where he picked it up for $6.00!

	13-02-2002 23:57									#18
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin You could check around on some of the online retailers; I'm sure you could do much better then $38.

I'm working on it

I already checked the Belgian online shops but nothing (at a decent price)

If they don't have it in Antwerp I might have to go to Brussels (yuck) and probably get a French (yuck) version.

Anybody know if there are translations available for the game texts like Civ2 ?

quote: Alternatively you could ask ZigZag where he picked it up for $6.00!

I'd do that if I lived on the same continent as ZigZag

	14-02-2002 00:07									#19
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard Mind you, I disagree about Civ3. I'm enjoying it a lot, but then I avoid multiplayer like the plague (I'm in a nearly-terminal time sink already...and I play as slow as a snail). At heart, I'm also not a modder (that's my day job), though I did enjoy HiRes for Civ2. However, I do agree that Civ3 probably won't have the long-term replayability of Civ2, in part because many of the challenges of the last couple of years in Civ2 are already known, and already solved in Civ3 (OCC, for example).

For me it's mainly the lack of a scenario editor why I don't like Civ3. I played the standard Civ2 game only 5 times or so, and then I started playing scenarios., 4 years long the same scenario's from Conflicts in Civilization and Walnut Creek's Toolkit for Civilization over and over again

Civ 3: finished 2 games, then got bored with it

	14-02-2002 06:58									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Assur:

You may be pleasantly surprised with CTP2 I know I am.

1) The game is very inexpensive right now

2) It comes with a huge tech/unit/terrain poster (remember those!)

3) Nice opening movie and Wonder movies

4) 12 gov'ts

5) No more worker clickfests

6) You can form military units into armies (12 unit max) and units can be added or removed whenever you want. I love this feature - it's so easy to do

7) By adding either the Apolyton Pack or Cradle mod, several game issues have been fixed and the AI has been made to be more aggressive.

Frankly, I'm having a lot of fun with this game.

If people have been frustrated with Civ3 but don't want to go back to Civ2, check out this game. Here is a game that is worth making scenarios for

	15-02-2002 05:43									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Leonidas You may be pleasantly surprised with CTP2 I know I am.

That's great to hear, Leonidas I never expected to see vets like you and Lancer (spotted him in the CtP1 forums) to give this game another chance (and liking it too)!

quote: If people have been frustrated with Civ3 but don't want to go back to Civ2, check out this game. Here is a game that is worth making scenarios for

Now, that's something the people in the Civ3 Forums should hear Coming from you, it might even convince more people to give this game another chance

	15-02-2002 06:09									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Locutus:

Thanks for the kind words

But all the praise should be directed to you, the modders, and several people on Activision's development team who obviously had a vision for this game.

Activision really dropped the ball on this game by abandoning it. After being modded, it is a very interesting game to play. I have mentioned the game several times on the Civ 3 forums, especially on topics dealing with stacked movement and worker click-fest tedium. . .

I love the army concept: it has been smoothly implemented in this game. Frankly, it just makes sense in a game as huge and time-encompassing as a civ game.

Anyway, all you guys keep up the great work. In the mean time, I've got to get back to my game. The wascally Germans are up to no good

	15-02-2002 07:35									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: several people on Activision's development team who obviously had a vision for this game.

You took the words right out of my mouth. Three guys (that I know of) have to be mentioned. The guy who put together the original algorithm was Dr. Ian Lane Davis. He's now head of his own company:

quote: Mad Doc Software was founded in November of 1999 by Dr. Ian Lane Davis, formerly Technical Director at Activision's Santa Monica studio. At Activision, Dr. Davis put his doctorate from Carnegie Mellon University's School of Computer Science to good use as Lead Programmer on Dark Reign, AI programmer on Battlezone and Civilization: Call To Power, and Lead Programmer, Technical Director, and co-Project Lead on Star TrekTM: Armada

Carnegie Mellon might not be a well known university, but it must be very good for Computer Science. All I know about it is that Dana Scott, one of the world's most eminant living mathematicians, left his post as Professor of Logic at Oxford to become Professor of Computor Science there.

Another bloke who has to get some credit somewhere is Richard Myers. He did the AI and I don't know anything about him: he seems to be a bit private. But last year, after Activision dropped support for the game, he came on these forums and gave us helpful advice on how the AI works.

But, IMO, the guy who has incredible vision is Joe Rumsey. In the context of Civilization games, SLIC really is the best thing since sliced bread.

	15-02-2002 13:24									#24
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Hear, hear, Peter! I agree with every single word.

The other person that should be mentioned is of course Winnie Lee, aka St Swithin, the first and only professional female software developer I've ever known (but I sure hope more will follow or my professional career is gonna be a really boring one ). She wrote some of the most 'interesting' SLIC code and wrote the first and only 'celebrity-column' here on Apolyton Not sure how big her impact on CtP2 was but she was one of the 'senior staff members' and present on these forums a lot, helping us out wherever possible.

quote: Originally posted by Peter Triggs SLIC really is the best thing since sliced bread.

After all, it's called SLICed bread for a reason

	16-02-2002 05:23									#25
	Remove this text

This post is for Assur and anyone else who is looking to giving the modded CTP2 game a second chance. I found CTP2 on Amazon for $19.95 plus you can specify which language you want it to come in. I'm sure you could find it even cheaper then this if you dug around a little.

	16-02-2002 08:21									#26
	Got spare money?

Hi!

Well I'm one of those who played CIV III and was really disappointed by it. Even after all the mods I've used for it and patches it lacks a certain something I can't quite place my finger on.

There were many things about CTP that I liked and thought CIV III could have learned something from those games, but I guess not. NOw I'm into CTPII with the mods and the game is most fun!

Primarch

	19-02-2002 02:52									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yes, I think the spill over affect from Civ3 has really helped the CTP2 revivial. Now the question becomes how do we keep it going? I'd like to suggest we begin a MP player registry and have an official Apolyton CTP2 tournament. Not only would it be loads of fun but activities like this would be a good way to interest new people and to expose them to some of the mod-communities last efforts.

	19-02-2002 03:21									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Oerdin,
I agree, we must organise all sorts of activities to keep things going. Many of us are posting in the Civ3 and Community forums whenever the opportunity arises to promote the game and get even more people here. Back in the old (UBB) days we used to have regular polls, with my 'age poll' I hope to have made a start in reintroducing that tradition. Your multiplayer registry is a great idea as well, that's why I immediately offered to top it (or rather have it topped); just get 3 or 4 people to post their data and I will do so. An official MP tournament would be absolutely fantastic as well, I'll gladly do anything I can to help out with that (except participate, I *really* don't have time for that). I'm seriously considering to 'host' a succession game myself - I don't really have time for that either but if it can bring that tradition back to live again I think I'm willing to make the sacrifice (it's less time consuming than MP games).

Other activities by other people are very much desired and appreciated as well. If anyone needs additional promotion in the form of news items or topped threads, I'm more than willing to abuse my power position with the mods to help out.

	19-02-2002 20:52									#29
	Inflate your Upload Space

Oerdin, thanks for the info but fortunately I found it in a shop for just a a few $ more than at Amazon.

Leonidas, I knew all that (that's why I was so disappointed in CTP2: it has such great features, but the weak AI made it unplayable) except that I never played the mods.

Now I'm about to start my first cradle game

	19-02-2002 21:08									#30
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Good luck