05-02-2002 09:16									#1
	Original Factions vs. New Ones Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Is it just me or do most people prefer to play one of the origin factions instead of the new ones included in SMAX? Likable?, More Believible?, Well Balanced?

And no Aki's pretty face doesn't count.

	05-02-2002 16:21									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Original factions are simply a whole lot better . And there's a lot of SMAC fiction based on original factions: most of the fan made, Michael Ely's books and tech/facility/projects quotes are mostly from originals. So it's easier to project oneself into their roles. They are also well balanced, unlike some SMAX factions, so I've heard.

quote: And no Aki's pretty face doesn't count.

What? She looks even less empathic than Miriam! No offense

	05-02-2002 22:47									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I definitely prefer to use the original seven factions. Overall, they seem much better balanced, and are certainly more believable as being capable of forging empires based on their various ideologies.

From an overall story line POV, the SMAX factions are just splinter groups from the original seven (i.e, Data Angels, Cult of Planet). IMHO only Domai and Aki's factions seem to be as believable as the original seven (i.e., being able to forge a global empire). The others just seem like bit players to me (Aliens not included).

Certainly in game play all the human factions are capable of global dominion (some better than others). Yet in SP I still gravitate to the original seven, mainly for a sense of story, believablity (or easier suspension of disbelief), and continuity.

However... I'd love to have the ability to play a game with all fourteen factions in it. All the political manevering, infighting, back stabbing, and covert deals! To actually have the Data Angels break away from Morgan early in the game, and see the rise of the Cult of Planet mid-way through the game. That would great!

I'm still so-so on the Pirates, though. Oh well...

Cheers

	05-02-2002 23:25									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: However... I'd love to have the ability to play a game with all fourteen factions in it. All the political manevering, infighting, back stabbing, and covert deals! !

I wonder when Civ genre is going to brake up from this 7 faction limitation(Does Civ3 allow 8?..can't remember). Although I'm mostly satisfied with the seven...probably because I've never had a chance to play with more

quote: To actually have the Data Angels break away from Morgan early in the game, and see the rise of the Cult of Planet mid-way through the game. That would great

Now, that's a good idea . A definite must-feature in a very hypothetical sequel of SMAC.
It would also be nice(well, I don't know about that ) to have riots which could actually span a whole new faction. So far, the only real danger has come from outside. But, in reality, every human community can be destroyed from inside. I would love to have that enabled in Civ genre. A whole new dimension into game play. The fact that you could actually loose because your goverment was taken over by masses of drones....unless you're state police...well, make things right

	05-02-2002 23:41									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The reason I put a couple of original factions in my smacx game is becuase I like to replace the aliens. If a coupke of factions get erradicated, then there are only 2 other factions that get to attend council meetings, personally, I prefer more.

Also, is it just me ? But it seems the original 7 are better a@@ kickers.

	06-02-2002 00:12									#6
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The olde faction appear to be stronger when palued by the AI than the newer faction. The newer faction have greater strong points and weak points, and the AI seems to do better with the more balnced ability older factions. Human flexibility seems to get more use out of the more extreme characteristic factions.

	06-02-2002 00:27									#7
	Remove this text

quote: The reason I put a couple of original factions in my smacx game is becuase I like to replace the aliens

I don't really like to play with alien factions either, for some reason. Somehow I've got the picture that most people prefer to play without them? I usually just use beefed up original factions, and occasionally some SMAX factions.

quote: The olde faction appear to be stronger when palued by the AI than the newer faction. The newer faction have greater strong points and weak points, and the AI seems to do better with the more balnced ability older factions.

That's true Lefty. Especially with Cult of Planet which is often a minor faction in SP games, although if things go well, it might grow big. Cult requires a new outlook into early game strategy and as we know, AI doesn't really have any of those. Datajacks are other "extreme" faction and require a more advanced, unconventional strategies, though I've seen AI play Roze rather well.

	06-02-2002 02:29									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

In order, my preferences are:
Drones, Cyborgs, University, Cult, Gaians, then Peacekeepers (do I have to? ).

So I think overall I prefer the newer factions. I can't stand playing Morgan, the Hive, or the Believers unless I am trying to handicap myself (against a weaker human player). I also steer away from the Angels (boring), Pirates (boring) and Aliens (overpowered).

Most of my SP and MP games have at least on Alien faction in them (random) or both (random or chosen). It's nice to have some powerful opponents in the early game to keep you on your toes.

	06-02-2002 02:52									#9
	Support Apolyton

quote: I can't stand playing Morgan, the Hive, or the Believers unless I am trying to handicap myself

Hey!

Yang isn't handicapped. Hive can build a very concentrated, well-defended and oriented society fairly early in the game. By pursuing the natural Hive strategy you can outgrow other factions and start producing a lot of units in the early game. Not much tech though, but you have the Probes and why not to get some more advanced allies to back up your military?

Morgan on the other hand is the power faction of energy, again the early bonus kicks in and gives you a head start. Capital rules! (note: personal opinion). I admit that Morgan isn't the easiest faction to play but once again you can depend from your allies to receive support trading your energy and tech.

If you land into remote island as Believers you're probably as good as done for unless you're really good player but once again you can take advantage of early military boost and invade any faction close by. And there's always some fool out there to probe for tech.

	06-02-2002 03:47									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Killjoy To actually have the Data Angels break away from Morgan early in the game,

How about the risk of running into the uncontrolled Drone Riots that will spread like a deadly virus which within turns would force half of your empire to turn into The Free Drones!!!

(Could be a random event)

	06-02-2002 04:02									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by knowhow2 How about the risk of running into the uncontrolled Drone Riots that will spread like a deadly virus which within turns would force half of your empire to turn into The Free Drones!!! (Could be a random event)

That's a good idea, but how to trigger it? Rec. Commons facilty?

	06-02-2002 04:09									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I like that idea but rather than have it as a random event, you could have it as a consequence of mismanaging your empire or following some kind of military or political defeat - to try and replicate the turmoil a culture would undergo following the loss of a war, being PBed or even being turfed out as governor. The otherside of the coin of course would be watching an enemy empire fragment as you turn the screws on it.

	06-02-2002 04:44									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

These are all great ideas!! I wish we could have access to them all in the game. A few more story plots woven into the overall strategy aspect of the game.

And they shouldn't happen every game. Way too predicatable. Maybe they could be options in the pre-game preferences. When you're selecting victory conditions you could also choose to select a set of sub-scenarios as game options. For example, by selecting one or all of the below options (this assumes you are playing the seven original factions);

Free Drone Riots
Cult of Planet Insurgence
Data Angels Rebellion
Cybernectic Consciousness Awakening
Maurading Nautilus Pirates

these plot lines could become active in the current game, adding further challenges (or hassles) to you the player, or as was also suggested you could witness it unfold on to a rival faction (i.e., if the University is in the game, but played by the AI, you might see the CC Awakening slowly break away from the University Faction mid-way through the game, and thus the dawning of a new rival/ally).

Maybe these options are only possible once a starting game faction has been eradicated, thus freeing up a spot for one of the splinter faction/sub-scenarios to take place (assuming only being able to use seven factions)

Being able to have more then seven opponents in the game would be much better, more exciting, allow for more options, and certainly more challenging (imagine having 13 rival factions possibly pitted against you at some point in the game-you'd have to be a real tyrant)

Of course the AI would have to be vastly improved (much better at managing its resources; units, terraforming, facility building) in order squeeze every ounce of efficiency out of each turn. As it is now each faction would be a push over (current AI could spend too much time fighting itself, as the rival factions bump into one another sooner, thus reducing their effectiveness against a capable human player).

Just a thought...

Last edited by Killjoy on 06-02-2002 at 05:11

	06-02-2002 07:58									#14
	Got spare money?

I like the new factions. I like playing against Domai because he can crank out those SPs like there's no tomorrow. I like playing as Cha Dawn because he can't get +1 energy per square and his industry penalty hurts making him more challenging. I like playing as the Pirates because it makes for a different game. I don't like the Aliens and am looking for a couple of replacement factions - will have to check out networknode.org. Any suggestions?

	06-02-2002 09:23									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I agree that the Drones and Cyborgs are the best of the new factions. The new faction I cant stand is the Pirates, fun to play for a change, but I almost never have AI pirates. When I do play 'all' SMAX factions I replace the pirates with the Hive.


Getting onto the slighty off-topic topic, the Civ model of population, drones etc doesn't really support empires breaking apart or collapsing. This is because the empires too easily reach an equilibrium. For example, bases stop growing before they run out of food. If instead the population grew regardless of nutrient supplies (and just got unhappier & less productive as the food got scarce) you would have all sorts of problems. Expansion would become essential, if you fail to provide for the population a good chunk of it might up and leave.

Another way the game could determine faction splits: using the Morgan / Data angel example. Running Free Market economy, with Wealth values, in a faction which is already naturally capitalist, would drive some facets of the population nuts, and cause them to form a "anti capitalist-pig" faction of their own.
Running more balanced SE (for example Green, Wealth - or Free Market, Knowledge) would reduce the chance of such a split, as it provides a friendlier environment for different facets of the population. Also, severe SE changes would have a tendency to drive some of the population to forming a new faction (example: a Cult like faction breaking away after the parent faction switches from Green/Power to FM/Wealth)

Basically, the old, existing Civ model, which was faithfully carried over to SMAC simply doesn't have enough complexity to allow such events. If such events are programmed in, they happen in an arbitrary and random way.

The moral of the story? SMAC 2 would have to break away from the tired old Civ model if we hope to have really cool features.

	08-02-2002 19:09									#16
	Pirates Rule!! Remove this text

Ever since SMACX came out, the only faction I play is the Pirates. They are awesome. I like being able to create bases on the water when no one else can (early on). I am also able to colonize any part of the planet, I'm not stuck on any island for any period of time.

Overall, I like the Original Factions better. When I play, I usually dump The Believers and the University for the Pirates and the Data Angels..

Hopefully a SMAC2 will come out and they'll allow up to 16 factions (depending on planet size) like they do in CIV III..

Jerry