07-02-2002 02:26									#1
	Why do companies do this? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

By this, I mean release a product, even though it's glaringly obvious it needs fixing.

Why? My theory is the internet. It lets them put out patches to fix problems that should have been corrected before the game was released. And even then, many problems aren't fixed, and they will later fix those problems, call it an expansion pack, and charge you 30 bucks for it.

Anyone remember before the internet was so widely used, when companies actually tried to make a game that was playable out of the box?

	07-02-2002 02:30									#2
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

You have it partly, If they realase an unfinished product they can then make an Expansion pack.

The thing, Civ III needed to be out for the Christmas Buying Period, I have to admit myself that i got the game as a Christmas Present, I was an ex-civ II fan and my parents spotted Civ III out - otherwise i woudnt own the game.

Companies exist to make profit... Had they finished the game, released it in January, they would have sold far less copies, then thier shareholders woudnt have been happy at all.

There is absolutly nothing we can do about it, except hope that sometime soon and expansion pack does come out - I like the guy , and will buy the pack whether or not i agree with what they are doing.


God Save the Queen

	07-02-2002 02:30									#3
	money money money Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

more money now, more money with expansion, more money with "gold" edition.

	07-02-2002 02:31									#4
	Increase Your PM Length

What "glaringly obvious" flaws need fixing? How is it "not playable out of the box"?



BTW, I thought you were leaving.

	07-02-2002 02:34									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

#'Anyone remember before the internet was so widely used'


ah, the good old days when children played outside together, when sad fat geeks, instead of being at a PC looking at porn all day, went out side and stood with other geeks getting threats from bullies.

the days when people spoke on a phone instead of 'texting', when ppl had fun and drank beer, instead of standing at the back of the bar drinking coke waiting to get home and speak to there net buddy

the days when paedophiles had a harder time getting child porn

the days when life outside the house ment something.


yes i remember.

	07-02-2002 03:14									#6
	Tape decks anyone? Increase Your PM Length

quote: By this, I mean release a product, even though it's glaringly obvious it needs fixing.

I remember when you could fix problems/bugs/crashes yourself. You would load the game, press Esc, type "List" and then amend the appropriate line of code. Even a 8 year old could do it - in fact I was an 8 year old who could do it - Oh for the days of the 64k computer.

	07-02-2002 03:31									#7
	Re: Tape decks anyone? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin quote: By this, I mean release a product, even though it's glaringly obvious it needs fixing. I remember when you could fix problems/bugs/crashes yourself. You would load the game, press Esc, type "List" and then amend the appropriate line of code. Even a 8 year old could do it - in fact I was an 8 year old who could do it - Oh for the days of the 64k computer.

Hey those are still around, only these days they call them wrist watches and calculators.

	07-02-2002 03:37									#8
	Re: money money money Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by ColdWizard more money now, more money with expansion, more money with "gold" edition.

you forgot the second expansion pack and the ToT edition

	07-02-2002 03:52									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I blame developers who are impatient andwant the game out ASAP, regardless of the state its in. After all, EUII was forced out by Nov. even though it needed more work. Thankfully, the Paradox team really makes sure there games rock.

	07-02-2002 04:07									#10
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by HisMajestyBOB I blame developers who are impatient andwant the game out ASAP, regardless of the state its in. After all, EUII was forced out by Nov. even though it needed more work. Thankfully, the Paradox team really makes sure there games rock.

Yeah well I know it sucks, but there's such a thing as economics. You don't just blow off the biggest time of year for game sales. If I understand correctly, Civ III was in the works for 2 1/2 years, so I suspect that thier budget was looking a bit thin at that point.

And it certainly didn't help much having the head programmer, and a few others as well, suddenly walk out and form his own company. That probably set them back months while the new team went over all the work that had already been done and got familiar with the project.

	07-02-2002 04:56									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Yes, the economic reasons are self explanitory. However, I would think that perhaps a better product would be more of an investment, and with universally good (player) reviews, more sales would come. I know that everyone who has asked me about CivIII, has recieved a review that wont make them buy it... but had it been a good thing, my one sale could've equalled six, seven eight more sales. Seems that this companies has a very short-term view of 'profitability'.



-FMK.

	07-02-2002 05:14									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh Yes, the economic reasons are self explanitory. However, I would think that perhaps a better product would be more of an investment, and with universally good (player) reviews, more sales would come. I know that everyone who has asked me about CivIII, has recieved a review that wont make them buy it... but had it been a good thing, my one sale could've equalled six, seven eight more sales. Seems that this companies has a very short-term view of 'profitability'. -FMK.

Well not all businessmen are wise. They quite often get blinded by that gleam of gold they're reaching for. In fact they're well known for not being able to see the forest for the trees. And like I said, there were some extenuating circumstances. I suspect that Infogrames didn't leave much of an option as far as allowing the new team to hammer out all the fine details. I'm sure they will in time though.

	07-02-2002 05:25									#13
	Re: Re: money money money Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by H Tower you forgot the second expansion pack and the ToT edition

Hey! Don't knock ToT!
Some people (myself among them) are rather pleased with that one.

I think expansion packs, originally, were designed to prolong the lifetime and to give those that stuck with something more of the "extra" experience. ie: a high value-adder out of proportion to the original cost of the game.
Its just unfortunate that, of late, the term "expansion pack" has in many cases become more of a monicker for "patch without which product is basically unplayable and a total waste of time".

	07-02-2002 05:30									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh I know that everyone who has asked me about CivIII, has recieved a review that wont make them buy it... but had it been a good thing, my one sale could've equalled six, seven eight more sales. Seems that this companies has a very short-term view of 'profitability'. -FMK.

Many of us thank you for this. Had you/techumseh and a few others not let us know about the complete lack of any form of scenario capability, I for one would have grabbed it as soon as it hit the shelves - relying on what was (falsely) proclaimed on the box as a guide to what was inside.

Gracias FMK

	07-02-2002 06:20									#15
	distinction Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Releasing a software product is a business decision and is made by the decisionmakers of the company (VPs, department heads, project managers, etc), NOT THE DEVELOPERS. The developers make the program, given deadlines. They probably wouldn't mind more time to fix & perfect their product. Don't blame them. It's a small team.

Products get released on their deadline if they at least basically work. It's necessary because projects have budgets. Getting your product "out the door" and releasing it "first of its kind" or "in time for Christmas" is way more important to any company than making it perfect. After all, it's so easy to patch things now.

No software product is perfect, ever. But a responsible support team that fixes problems is all we can hope for. And they have been pretty good with a couple patches already.

Please lay off them.

	07-02-2002 06:26									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Perhaps it's in the genre. Strategy games have many more design flaws that are fixable, than RPG's and FPS's.

	07-02-2002 06:42									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Theres a lot more that can go wrong in a strategy game (esp w/ the AI) so they get bugs.

	07-02-2002 08:47									#18
	Re: Re: Re: money money money Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by ravagon Hey! Don't knock ToT! Some people (myself among them) are rather pleased with that one.

i wasn't knocking it, i was just pointing out that cold wizard only mentioned two of the four probable add-ons although... since this is civ3 and we have supposedly advanced in technolgy since the release of civ2, there might be more than 4 add-ons...

	07-02-2002 11:23									#19
	Got spare money?

If you look at some of the biggest name games ever, they had many patches.

Doom, Quake, Unreal, Starcraft, Diablo, Civ 2, etc etc etc. All had at least half a dozen patches.

How soon we forget.

	07-02-2002 12:08									#20
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by OneInTen If you look at some of the biggest name games ever, they had many patches. Doom, Quake, Unreal, Starcraft, Diablo, Civ 2, etc etc etc. All had at least half a dozen patches. How soon we forget.

patch is different than add-on. you pay for one, you get the other free

	07-02-2002 12:33									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Why do companies do this?

Contrary to popular belief, Companies are in this to make money.

	07-02-2002 18:26									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by HisMajestyBOB I blame developers who are impatient andwant the game out ASAP, regardless of the state its in. After all, EUII was forced out by Nov. even though it needed more work. Thankfully, the Paradox team really makes sure there games rock.

EU2 is not available throughout most of Europe. They are waiting for the "complete" version before it ships. Predicted release is March.

	07-02-2002 19:10									#23
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Interesting thread, but what does it have to do with either Apolyton itself or its Community?

	07-02-2002 21:50									#24
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Zealot Interesting thread, but what does it have to do with either Apolyton itself or its Community?

it was moved here from the civ3 general forum, so it must be in the right spot

quote: there might be more than 4 add-ons

expansion 1: scenario editor, expansion 2: scenarios, expansion 3: scenarios off the net, expansion 4: expansions 1-3, expansion 5: MP, expansion 6: expansions 4 and 5.
edition 1: original edition, edition 2: "limited" edition, edition 3: edition 1 with expansion 4, edition 4: original edition with expansion 5, edition 5: gold edition (original with expansion 6), edition 6: gold "limited" edition (edition 5 in a tin with cheap **** added in), edition 7: ToT

	07-02-2002 23:03									#25
	Re: Tape decks anyone? - No thanks :) Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin quote: By this, I mean release a product, even though it's glaringly obvious it needs fixing. I remember when you could fix problems/bugs/crashes yourself.

Me too