07-02-2002 03:06									#1
	Need balance suggestions for unit ideas. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I have some ideas knocking around in my head for a themed Mod, but it's going to be a pastiche on the existing CivIII...that being said, I want to introduce new units, but I don't want them to just be variations on existing units...rather, I would wish that they fill, if not a need, then a niche, that existing units don't fill.

The idea I came up with was "Wonder Units." These are units that are strong in all three categories, Attack, Defense, and Movement, and come with lots of super nifty special abilities, *but* they're hideously expensive to build.

The niche is for peacetime unit-builders who just don't know what they'll need, don't want to commit the resources/gold to a diversified army, and have lots of production on their hands that would otherwise go to waste, which *can* happen.

So, for example, and this is the worst one, the Ancient Era Wonder Unit is the Hero. The strongest attacker (and defender!) of the ancient era is the Swordsman, at 3/2, and the strongest mover is the Horseman at 2. I gave a bonus to these stats (arbitrary, but loosely based on the era) and came up with a 4.3.2 unit, with a Zone of Control. (This happens to be almost an early-tech Knight, but my other era units have no equivalents) I made a wild @$$ guess and said it costs 100 shields to build, which is more than the Knight, but it has ZOC *and* it will probably come at an earlier tech. Should it be more or less, or is the entire idea flawed and should be trashed?

(The other units, ignoring how I arrived at the values, are:
8.4.3 ADM 8.1.1 BRF with ZOC and Blitz, 200 shields.
19.13.3 ADM 12.2.1 BRF with ZOC, Blitz, and Amphibious, 300 shields
28.22.4 ADM, 16.2.1 BRF with ZOC, Blitz, Amphibious, and Radar, 400 shields.)

(I thought about giving them paradrop instead of amphibious, but I figured I would make a Wonder Air unit with Airlift capability and do it that way)

I suppose a truly dedicated person would just make an Alpha-mod and test, but this will be my first Mod, and I am not sure if I want to commit to downloading the necessary tools if the idea I have doesn't quite fly.

Thank you for your input.

	07-02-2002 06:58									#2
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Wouldn't it be better to allow construction of Armies earlier in the game?

	07-02-2002 18:42									#3
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Yes, it would, but then I would lose my excuse for introducing new types of units that aren't just clones or variations of existing units.

I could rationalize it a few ways. The first is sketchy without having the game nearby to test, but it's possible that once you load an Army with units, you still have to pay maintenance for all four units (3 in the army, and the army itself.)
Or not. Anyone know offhand which it is? If noone answers, I'll prolly go check tonight.

Another is that Armies lack special abilities.

	07-02-2002 23:57									#4
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Honestly, I'd scrap the concept. It's not that it wouldn't be nice to use those types of units, but it'd make things too easy.

Remember that the AI is, in general, an idiot. In the Ancient Era he'll attack with a little of everything; some swordsmen, some archers, some horsemen, some spearmen, some warriors, etc. Adding yet another option for the AI just reduces the chances he'll build whatever unit type is appropriate to the situation he's in.

You can give Armies special abilities. I've given all Armies Blitz and ZoC, no matter what units are contained; it makes a huge difference. So, make some new "units" that are simply Armies with different abilities, different capacities, different costs, etc; this would effectively allow you to create SuperUnits without making it too easy.

Now, if only the AI would make Armies... has anyone seen a situation, EVER, where an AI got a Leader? (And if not, they can't ever get the Military Academy, so no Armies that way either). Maybe it's time to remove the "victorious army" requirement from the Academy.

	08-02-2002 03:08									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Spatzimaus Maybe it's time to remove the "victorious army" requirement from the Academy.

Agreed. This is my definite no.1 change if I ever start to mod this game.

	08-02-2002 05:13									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Tarbox Another is that Armies lack special abilities.

There's no reason why you can't give them some, they're just another unit in the editor. With some limitations mind you, but you can still change a number of their properties and abilities.

	08-02-2002 05:18									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Spatzimaus Now, if only the AI would make Armies... has anyone seen a situation, EVER, where an AI got a Leader? (And if not, they can't ever get the Military Academy, so no Armies that way either). Maybe it's time to remove the "victorious army" requirement from the Academy.

I've converted the Palace into a Small Wonder that can make Armies right away, and believe me, the AI does build them. In my last game I saw a stack of French armies, one with 10 Swordsman, 2 with 5 mixed units, sitting on the border of an Indian city. I suddenly had this feeling that I had created a monster.

	08-02-2002 18:30									#8
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Okay, FYI: An army loaded with 3 units costs 4 units of maintenance...4 gold for republics. No matter how much move you give an Army, it assumes the move of the slowest unit you add to it. These mean that my proposed niche -- maintenance cheap, high production cost super units -- is still open, but I am definitely hearing the complaint about the AI being an idiot. The idea of different types of Army units -- some with different abilities than others -- is very exciting, but then I almost have to lower the Army support costs -- 1 per 4 cities -- and I'm a lot more hesitant to do that than almost everyone else.

Thank you for all the advice!

	08-02-2002 18:56									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Tarbox The idea of different types of Army units -- some with different abilities than others -- is very exciting, but then I almost have to lower the Army support costs -- 1 per 4 cities -- and I'm a lot more hesitant to do that than almost everyone else. Thank you for all the advice!

Why worry about it? I've reduced mine to 1 army/1 city. Chances are the AI isn't going to be building on that scale, so it will be to my benefit. And chances are, I'll never be able to produce that many Armies in the course of the game anyway. Especially since they can't be upgraded. It still takes time to create the units and put them inside, and until the endgame at least, they'll become obsolete fairly quickly. If you do it and feel that it's overkill, then you can change it back, or find some ratio that does work. Don't discount a possibility until you've actually tried it.

BTW, you're not limited to 3 units per Army, just alter the transport capacity. So far I've had 12 units in one, with no apparent limits in sight.

	09-02-2002 00:43									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Trabox, I have similar thing in my mod. I have strong A/D/M units, which require specific new resources and have population cost 2-4. AI handle yhem well. Too well in fact, I have to make them more expensive

	09-02-2002 02:29									#11
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s3d, you have made my day. While the idea of having different types of Army units...some that carry less troops, but have more special abilities, for example, or maybe just plain better but more expensive...appealed to me, I had really talked myself into the idea of low maintenance, high production super units.

I'll be checking out your mod to see what you did with the idea...and how expensive they are for what they do, with the understanding that you think they're too cheap.