07-02-2002 12:58									#1
	The World at War! Ideas & Discussion. Increase the size of your Attachments

What follows is the first draft of a design brief for a MOD I've got in mind.

code:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
World At War! MOD

- Dates: January 1900 to December 1949.
- Turns: 600.  Each month is a turn.
- Based on the history of the World at War incorporating World War I & II.

Starting situation:
     1. Start with one established city.
          . Size: 10.
          . Starts with basic infrastructure.
          . Starts with Factory.
     2. Start with 3 settlers.
     3. Start with 3 riflemen.
     4. Start with 2 artillery.
     5. The first tech on the list is "Tank Warfare".
     6. Start with pre-established government.
     7. AI's start with a random "plan".
          - Agressive attacker plan.
               - Agressively builds units and military infrastructure for attack.
               - Agressively uses diplomacy for demands and ultimatums.
               - Agressively seeks to conquor.
          - Follower attacker plan.
               - Agressively builds units and military infrastructure for attack.
               - Uses diplomacy normally.
               - Follows Agressive attacker when conquoring.
          - Agressive defender plan.
               - Agressively builds units and military infrastructure for defense.
               - Agressively uses diplomacy for keeping the peace.
               - Agressively defends itself and allies.
               - Agressively helps friendly neutrals attacked by enemies.
          - Follower defender plan.
               - Agressively builds units and military infrastructure for defense.
               - uses diplomacy normally.
               - Follows Agressive defender when defending.
          - Sleeping giant plan.
               - Normally builds units for defense.
               - Agressively builds infrastructure for development.
               - Uses diplomacy normally for everything.
               - Agressively seeks allies and friends.
               - When attacked agressively builds units for defense/attack.
                    - Changing percentages from "agressive defense" to "agressive attack".
               - Agressively defends itself and allies.
               - Agressively helps friendly neutrals attacked by enemies.
     8. Everyone neutral to each other.
     9. Regard for similar governments enhanced.
     10. Regard for opposite governments decreased.  (Except Sleeping giants)

Gameflow Aims:
     1. To simulate the political, economic, scientific and military upheaval during the first 50 years of the 20th Century.
     2. To allow for a game full of diplomatic intrigue, alliances, betrayals, aggressors, defenders and scientific 

achievement.
     3. To allow the player to have a full-length game based on modern warfare using ground, sea and air forces common to the 

period.

Features:
     1. Unique tech tree based on the period.
     2. Variety of units based on the period.
     3. An AI that attacks, defends, researches and is diplomatic according to their personality.  (See above)
     4. Historic events like Communist revolutions, ethnic purging, chemical trench warfare and the Great Depression.

Last edited by Dale on 07-02-2002 at 13:05

	07-02-2002 20:15									#2
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Sounds interesting.

You might have some trouble in getting all the required unit graphics together though...

AI work would seem to be very time-consuming too, but very useful for other mods too, so certainly worth the effort...

Why not make it a scenario (with a map of Europe or even the entire world) instead of a mod?

	08-02-2002 12:44									#3
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Locutus:

Unit graphics - From my unit list (see attached file) you'll see that the unit graphics either exist or are in the WW2 scenario. I'm trying to keep the number of unit types down so the AI finds it easier to keep up.

AI - Peter's diplo script will be extremely useful for this. Very busy AI diplomacy fits into the era perfectly. May just need a little refinement, but that's okay. As for the rest, it's pretty much all text files and SLIC's that we already have.

Scenario vs MOD - As for why I want to make it a MOD, I just love that time period. Therefore I wanted to make a MOD where I could start a new Civ with the techs of the period and see how I fair. With monthly turns, it still comes up as 600 turns. Obviously, the smaller the map and more Civs in the game, the better it will be. But that's where I'll change the map sizes to suit. As for scenarios, I'm sure it'll be easy to setup WWI, WWII, theoretical and historical scenarios once the MOD is written. By writing a specific MOD for the period, it opens up for scenarios based on the period with ease.




All:

Take a look at the following file which includes the tech tree, units, buildings and wonders for the game. Tell me what you think.

Attachment: tech chart.zip
This has been downloaded 20 time(s).

	09-02-2002 06:45									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Dale Unit graphics - From my unit list (see attached file) you'll see that the unit graphics either exist or are in the WW2 scenario. I'm trying to keep the number of unit types down so the AI finds it easier to keep up.

Wow, that's a very small list indeed. Maybe even too small for a game that's supposed to last 600 turns? Doesn't that get very boring for the human player? I originally had some concern because I thought you were going for a full-blown tech and unit tree, now I fear you might be making it too short The WWII scenario alone offers you 5 tanks and 16 infantrymen (although most of those latter only differ in uniform color) and the original games (CtP1&2) offer some nice units as well, you can afford to expand the tech tree a little bit (but less units for the AI is a good point as well)...

quote: AI - Peter's diplo script will be extremely useful for this. Very busy AI diplomacy fits into the era perfectly. May just need a little refinement, but that's okay. As for the rest, it's pretty much all text files and SLIC's that we already have.

Agreed, that should work well.

quote: Scenario vs MOD - As for why I want to make it a MOD, I just love that time period. Therefore I wanted to make a MOD where I could start a new Civ with the techs of the period and see how I fair. With monthly turns, it still comes up as 600 turns. Obviously, the smaller the map and more Civs in the game, the better it will be. But that's where I'll change the map sizes to suit. As for scenarios, I'm sure it'll be easy to setup WWI, WWII, theoretical and historical scenarios once the MOD is written. By writing a specific MOD for the period, it opens up for scenarios based on the period with ease.

Very good point...

quote: Take a look at the following file which includes the tech tree, units, buildings and wonders for the game. Tell me what you think.

Very nice indeed. Can't see much wrong with it. Well, maybe rename boatyard to shipyard, has a better ring to it IMHO. And maybe replace V2 with V1 or add the V1 seperately, it was far more widely used (although not nearly as effective).
Maybe add Marines for Amphibious assaults. Then again, the AI might not be too fond of that...
Anyway, looks good overall. If I have more comments I'll let you know.

	11-02-2002 11:14									#5
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Locutus:
I've re-worked the techs/units/buildings/wonders and come up with the following. Also, I've fixed up the excel file so it actually looks like a tech tree now. Tell me what you think.

BTW, when I mean Axis, Allies or Russian, this means that I'll split the civs in a game into three tech groups, and those three groups get slightly different units based on which group they fit into. I don't necessarily mean that the US, UK, France, Canada and other Allies get the same units each game, or that Germany and Italy get Axis units each game. It'll be random but tending towards an equal amount of Civs per group. Got that?

-------------------------------------------------------------

Units:
Land:
Rifleman (All - at start)
Artillery
- Light field gun (All - at start)
- Artillery (M1 6 inch) (All) (Assembly Line)
- Heavy Artillery (M2 155mm) (All) (Radar)
Cavalry
- Dragoon (All - at start)
Early tank (All) (Assembly Line)
Infantry
- Machinegunner (All - at start)
- Marine (All) (Radio Broadcast)
- Stormtrooper (Axis) (Assembly Line)
- Infantry Regt (Allies) (Assembly Line)
- Red Army Corp (Russian) (Assembly Line)
Tank
- Light tank (All) (Motorised Warfare)
- Mark IV tank (Axis) (Motorised Warfare)
- Tiger tank (Axis) (Motorised Warfare)
- Matilda tank (Allies) (Motorised Warfare)
- Sherman tank (M4) (Allies) (Motorised Warfare)
- T34-86 tank (Russian) (Motorised Warfare)
- KV-1 tank (Russian) (Motorised Warfare)
Motor infantry
- Mech. Infantry (M3A1 half-track) (Allies & Russian) (Motorised Warfare)
- Panzer Grenadiers (SdKfz 251) (Axis) (Motorised Warfare)
Anti-air
- Anti-air gun (field) (All) (Radar)
- Heavy Anti-air gun (city) (All) (Radar)

Air:
Biplane
- Hs-123 (All) (Powered Flight)
Chemical bomb (All) (Chemical Weapons)
Fighter
- Bf-109 (Axis) (Radar)
- Me-262 (Axis) (Radar)
- Spitfire (Allies) (Radar)
- Mustang p-51 (Allies) (Radar)
- Yakolev Yak-9 (Russian) (Radar)
- La-7 (Russian) (Radar)
Bomber
- Ju-87 Stuka (Axis) (Advanced Flight)
- B-17 Flying Fortress (Allies) (Advanced Flight)
- Stormovik Il-2 (Russian) (Advanced Flight)
Paratrooper (All) (Nylon)
Rockets
- V1 (Axis) (Rocketry)
Nuke (Allies & Russian) (Manhatten Project - Nuclear Reaction)

Sea:
Battleship (All - at start)
Battle cruiser (Allies) (Naval Warfare)
Cruiser (All) (Naval Warfare)
Transport ship (All - at start)
Submarine (All) (Assembly Line)
U-boat (Axis) (Electronic Warfare)
Patrol boat (All) (Naval Warfare)
Aircraft Carrier (All) (Naval Warfare)
Destroyer (All) (Electronic Warfare)

Special:
Diplomat (All - at start)
Spy (All - at start)
Freight truck (trade) (All - at start)
Urban developer (All - at start)
Propeganda (All) (Radio Broadcast) (Similar to cleric abilities)

--------------------------------------------------------------

Buildings:
Capital - One per Civ. Default effect.
Food Silo - Infrastructure. Prevent starvation.
Cathedral - Infrastructure. +50% happiness.
Hospital - Infrastructure. Reduces crowding.
Sewers - Infrastructure. Reduces crowding.
Power Plant - Infrastructure. +25% production.
Stockmarket - None. +50% commerce.
Shipyard - None. Repairs ships.
Factory - None. +25% production.
Airport - Powered Flight. +25% commerce.
Manufactoring - Assembly Line. +50% production.
Radio Station - Radio Broadcast. Immune to propeganda.
Television Station - Television. -50% unhappiness.
Radar Station - Radar. +50% defense.
Computer Lab - Transistor. +50% science.
Nuclear Pile - Nuclear Reaction. Allows Manhatten Project.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Wonders:
Model T Ford - Assembly Line. -50% unhappiness Civ.
Cure For Syphilis - Drugs. -50% war weariness Civ.
Social Toleration - Eugenics. -50% unhappiness Civ.
National Surveylance - Radar. Radar station in each city.
Supercomputer - Electronic Computing. +50% science Civ.
Manhatten Project - Nuclear Reaction. Allows Nukes.

Attachment: tech chart.zip
This has been downloaded 9 time(s).

	15-02-2002 05:15									#6
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Wow, looks great I very much like the unit tree...

	15-02-2002 06:14									#7
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Looks like you guys are doing a pretty thorough job on this. I can't wait to play it.

All the best in your efforts

	15-02-2002 11:18									#8
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Thanks guys.

Well, I'm oncall for work next week, so don't need to turn up. However, I'll be working on this all week. So when I get back to work in a week's time (where I have net access) I'll hopefully have something to play.

	16-02-2002 00:03									#9
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Dale,

A bit of info... Since you will most likely be creating a set of units for this Mod, here are the numbers designated for the new units in Cradle, so that you will not cause any file overwrites. Most shouldn't be an issue - if you are going by the list set up for MedMod (I used that list too), but there were some numbers not in designated in that MedMod list that I used for units in Cradle (These are marked with an asterix)

SPRITE_SLAVEMASTER 4
SPRITE_MUHAMMAD 6
SPRITE_BIREME 7
SPRITE_HYPASPISTS 8
SPRITE_ALEXANDER_THE_GREAT 8
SPRITE_TREBUCHET 11
SPRITE_ULYSSES_GRANT 20
SPRITE_FRANCIS_DRAKE 21

SPRITE_GALLEON 26
SPRITE_REVOLUTIONARY 34
SPRITE_DWIGHT_EISENHOWER 38
SPRITE_NORMAN_SCHWARZKOPF 46
SPRITE_ELEPHANT_WARRIOR 81
SPRITE_LEGION 83
SPRITE_CAESAR 83
SPRITE_PRAETORIANS 84
SPRITE_CATAPHRACT 86
SPRITE_CORACLE 87
SPRITE_PEZHETEROI 88
SPRITE_COMPOSITE_ARCHER 89

SPRITE_NOMAD 111*
SPRITE_TEUTONIC_KNIGHT 114*
SPRITE_CHARLEMANGE 114*
SPRITE_HERNAN_CORTES 114*
SPRITE_ARQUEBUSIER 119*
SPRITE_WARRIOR 124*
SPRITE_HEPTIREME 125*
(I think the above numbers were designated in the unit list, but I am not sure - but at this point in time, there hasn't been any Cradle/MedMod conflict reported)

SPRITE_PROPHET 151
SPRITE_SLINGER 153
SPRITE_JAVELIN_CAVALRY 154
SPRITE_HAMMURABI 154
SPRITE_HORSEMAN 155
SPRITE_NEBUCHADNEZZER 155
SPRITE_CHARIOT 156
SPRITE_RAMSES 156
SPRITE_SPEARMAN 158
SPRITE_JANISSARY 159
SPRITE_MAN_AT_ARMS 160

SPRITE_GALLEY 163*
SPRITE_HURRICANE 176*
SPRITE_CATAPULT 180*
SPRITE_CROSSBOWMAN 188*
SPRITE_DROMON 189*
SPRITE_SLAVER 190*
SPRITE_BELFROI 197*
(The above numbers had not been claimed, so I claimed them for Cradle units.)

	16-02-2002 02:54									#10
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Hey Dale,
sounds very intresting, i'm not a massive fan of ww1/ww2(i'm an 'ancient' fan), but i'd love to play it! I'm very intrested in how the focus on a shorter span of history, with the reduced time per turn will affect the players level of involvement with his/her civ(i think it might increase it ).And by having it as a 'world war' mod the focus will be pretty obvious - it could be fantastic to play in multiplayer mode Please hurray!

	16-02-2002 12:27									#11
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Sounds great, Dale. Hope it turns out well.

	23-02-2002 21:17									#12
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Hey Dale,

I have prepared a big map of Europe (250*346), maybe you could use this map.
Look to my Homepage:
http:/home.t-online.de/home/dteetz/

	24-02-2002 12:35									#13
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I like the timeline this scenario/modpack will cover.

You guys have all the experience and knowledge needed to turn out something great.

I hope it will reach "Beta" stage soon.

Let us know if you need beta testers

	25-02-2002 05:47									#14
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One major idea I have had and hope somebody could help put together for me would be a Oil Tanker (Ship) and Resupply unit (Land).

Basically I want to have ships requiring fuel and not automatically be refuled by calling in at a city, unless that city has something like an oil refinery.

The Oil Tanker unit would need to have the ability to refuel x number of ships or even better a set amount of fuel to refill other ships when entering the same square.

Oil tankers would then have to be refueled at a port with an oil refinery.

Also I would have a gound based Resupply unit something like Harlans excellent WWII 6x6 transport truck that is required to resupply(Refuel) ground units.

	25-02-2002 08:41									#15
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quote: Basically I want to have ships requiring fuel and not automatically be refuled by calling in at a city, unless that city has something like an oil refinery.

How about also allowing the airport terrain improvement to behave as a military base and allow both land and air units to refuel there?

Also, following this train of thought, would it be a good idea to use the port terrain improvement as a naval base to refuel ships?

	25-02-2002 11:09									#16
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Okay, the going has been slow (real life kept getting in the way), but here's an update of what's in the MOD so far, and running correctly:

- Advances
- Buildings
- Wonders
- Units
- Governments (only Fascism, Democracy & Communism)

All the graphics, costs and properties of all these are finalised (though the costs may change during testing).

Here's some things I've been following:
- Buildings are slightly cheaper
- Units are slightly cheaper
- Unique units are dearer, but with benefits
- Science is cheaper, but not as much opportunity to generate lightbulbs through the game

Here's some things I've got to put in next:
- I'll use a lot of AI files from Cradle (well it is the most aggressive AI we've got so far)
- I'll be putting Peter's new diplo script in the MOD as well..... IF he finishes it

So hopefully a beta soon.

	25-02-2002 11:29									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Master_Darque How about also allowing the airport terrain improvement to behave as a military base and allow both land and air units to refuel there? Also, following this train of thought, would it be a good idea to use the port terrain improvement as a naval base to refuel ships?

The only problem I can see, is how to get the AI to recognise this. I already have a building for coastal cities which will "allow" ships to be built (except patrol boats which can be built anywhere) and it wouldn't take much to make it a repair centre either. As for SLICing the AI to sent ships back for repair, I think I have a way in mind, but will have to test it when I write it.

As for refueling, It'd be too hard for the AI to contend with.

	26-02-2002 03:28									#18
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Dale,

Would the refueling ship idea not just be able to use a slightly modified version of your airunit.slc file you have already done.

For example- if we kept things simple -
Each time another ship get refueled the tanker looses 10000 fuel. when its own fuel fell below 10000 it would not be considered a refuel point and would then itself return to a port for refueling.

I dont know a great deal about the SLC at this stage but i dont see why ships should work any different to aircraft and aircraft carriers?

Thanks for your thoughts so far.

	26-02-2002 05:59									#19
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I think it might be possible to do. The change to airunit.slc would be minor, but going about getting how much fuel is left in a plane might not be possible.

Maybe Locotus or Wombat know of a way to find out the fuel left in a plane? *hint hint*

	26-02-2002 06:33									#20
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That sounds encouraging,

Also just a quick tip if some one could please,
I have had to reinstall CTPII but now the saved games that I wsa using to develope the WWII scenario no-longer appear. Please could you let me know how to get them back
(I still ahve the origonal files)

Best regards,

	26-02-2002 21:02									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Dale Maybe Locotus or Wombat know of a way to find out the fuel left in a plane? *hint hint*

No, I don't know. Probably you'd have to do it on a unit specific basis by keeping track of how many times it has moved since refueling last.

	26-02-2002 22:48									#22
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quote: Originally posted by CJCharlesworth That sounds encouraging, Also just a quick tip if some one could please, I have had to reinstall CTPII but now the saved games that I wsa using to develope the WWII scenario no-longer appear. Please could you let me know how to get them back (I still ahve the origonal files) Best regards,

Did you reinstalled the patch. If not than the program does not show you savegames that were saved with the patch.

-Martin

	26-02-2002 23:05									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat No, I don't know. Probably you'd have to do it on a unit specific basis by keeping track of how many times it has moved since refueling last.

That's what I would say as well, AFAIK you can't get the actual amount of fuel from a unit. But keeping track of all fuel-based units (using arrays) is quite easy to code; I've coded at least a dozen or so similar things. The only potential problem is that it might eat a lot of memory, but in this day and age that shouldn't a big problem either.

	27-02-2002 04:42									#24
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Ill try reapplying the patch for the missing saved games - Thanks!
Thanks for everyones input into my Tanker/Ship Refueler idea. After reading your comments and looking at the Referance information for SLIC I better understand the problems.

Becuase of the complexitity of implementation I have gone off the idea of the oil tanker unit and I suspect it will not operate in the way I had hoped. So I am having a rethink on that note.

I have changed my scenario ships properties so that they have loss of movement when damadged. I dont know why this is disabled on all units by default and it does seem to work nicely. Any reason why all units are set to- LossMoveToDmgNone?

However...
I did like the idea of Sea mines and mine sweepers which Harlan implemented in the stunning Civ II scenario of the Pacific War. how possible would that be to implement ?

	27-02-2002 17:56									#25
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quote: Originally posted by CJCharlesworth I did like the idea of Sea mines and mine sweepers which Harlan implemented in the stunning Civ II scenario of the Pacific War. how possible would that be to implement ?

The land and sea mines were nearly in CTP1 therefore we have the graphics. Land and sea mines would be tile improvements so that no one starts a war when he is hit by a mine. Mine explotions would be triggered by slic. But the real problem how to make the AI use the mines. I know how to add an order like ORDER_BUILD_FORT, so that I can make a goal for the AI like GOAL_BUILD_FORT. The best thing of this new fort build sollution is that the AI knows that it will do something for its defence and it is not just a road link code like the forts for the AI code. From the GoodMod thread you can see what a border region for the AI is.

-Martin

http://apolyton.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=762350

	28-02-2002 04:30									#26
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My thoughts where lending more towards a mine unit that could be placed aboard a transport ship and unload into the sea. If it had special unit attributes enemy ship would not see it unless it was a mine sweeper.
Harlan managed to implement this in a CivII scenario and it worked very well.
Then when you implement the damadge causes loss of movement to ships it helps build on the tatics and scope of the game.

Im also trying to think of a way to bring another element to CTP2. At the moment it works very well on a stratigic military level. But is lacking in a logistical manner.
For example the tanker idea, once a nation has a massed a large fleet the only way to win is to build an even bigger fleet. But with the tanker idea that large fleet would have to be regulary supplied. Take out some of these tankers and greatly improve your odds of winning by rendering ineffective parts of the enemy fleet.

To my knowledge this has never been attempted. I also had the hope to extend the tanker idea to ground forces. that way a numerically superior army may advance for some distance but could be halted or slowed by targeting its re-supply chain.

Im not sure Im going to get anywhere with this, but like I say, I think it would bring many other new strategies to the game. Anyone else think the same or should I keep my over extended ideas to myself ?

	28-02-2002 05:07									#27
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CJCharlesworth,
I agree that supply was *extremely* important in real military history and that it would be infinitely cool to implement it in a civ game (in fact one of the most important features still missing IMHO), but getting the AI to deal with it would be extremely difficult. I'm afraid this particular idea might be a little *too* ambitious...

	28-02-2002 14:48									#28
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CJ don't keep ideas to yourself, its these discussions which drive our development of the game forward. I for one want as many of these threads as we can get. If ideas don't work then maybe we can adapt them into something which can, but you approach things differently to me, Locutus' approach is different again, Dale, Hexagonian, IW etc (sorry I can't list everyone) these threads have given me ideas I want to try and shaped the ideas I have got. Keep posting!

	28-02-2002 16:57									#29
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quote: Originally posted by tigger Keep posting!

That is certainly true. Regardless of how impossible something may seem, you never know...

	03-03-2002 05:12									#30
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Im trying to get as much realism as is sensible out of CTP2.

One odd thing I've noticed is that although during land battles you can use a Flanker unit with the IsFlanker attribute to attack an emeny from the side as well as head on, Sea Battles do not allow this.

I have modified the unit properties of all warships to be IsFlanker like the tank but the game appears to ignore this fact. Am I correct and can anything be done about this ?
Note: There is a chance that my observation could be down to crap testing!

Also,
Would anyone agree that in a WWII scenario Subs should not be able to see other Subs?