08-02-2002 01:20									#1
	Short(!!) conversation with Mike B. Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

FrantzX

quote: Would it be possible of us to edit more numbers in later releases of the editor? For example, making an improvement that gave a 100% bonus to research or some other number instead of 50%? Such an ability would have to allow negative numbers also, so that the creation of powerful improvements with side-effects would be possible. Thank you for your time.

Mike Breitkreutz FIRAXIS

quote: This is a good idea. However, I don't know when or if this feature will be implemented as there are many other features I need to add to the editor that have to take precendence (such as the placement of units and cities on the map, for example). I will keep this suggestion in mind and implement it if time permits.

	08-02-2002 01:22									#2
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Short but significant.

	08-02-2002 01:24									#3
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An intelligent, yet polite suggestion gets a response from Firaxis. Who knew?

	08-02-2002 01:41									#4
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And it seems to be proof that they ARE working on improvements of the game. Contrary to what some people might believe

A good sign for the future

	08-02-2002 01:47									#5
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I like that conversation a fan asked a question, a Firaxian anwsered. It was just honest and to the point. That's all everyone around here has been asking for; he didn't have to make any promises all he said was:

[paraphrase] I hear you, it sounds like it might be a good idea so I will look at it some more, no promises though.

I guess some people at Firaxis are starting to learn decent P.R. skills...

	08-02-2002 02:05									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I guess some people at Firaxis are starting to learn decent P.R. skills...

can someone please explain me this psychosis with good PR? i thought it was good games that we wanted, not good PR

	08-02-2002 02:17									#7
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG can someone please explain me this psychosis with good PR? i thought it was good games that we wanted, not good PR

Hmmm...I understand how you're getting defensive. You have more to lose if you get disillusioned. You probably are, but are just denying it since you are in charge of a website devoted to Civ after all, and it would really be a blow to your sense of purpose if you stopped defending Firaxis.

And I'm not sure if you're kidding about your second sentence or whole post. If it was your whole post, never mind.

But I have been involved in many forums with many different games, and Firaxis had formerly been quite active in communicating with players until after they made their first patch. It's most likely because the non-stop repetition of same complaints here in the general forum, but they need to develop thicker skins, and ignore the noise while responding to actual constructive criticism. Instead, they have fallen completely silent.

In other forums, I have seen responses by the programmers to really idiotic threads while maintaining their patience and integrity, and knew how to give a competent response that shut the people up without closing the thread or anything.

Firaxis has become the second worse developer in terms of feedback in my experience, second to Activision and their abandoning of CTP2.

	08-02-2002 02:56									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Pembleton Hmmm...I understand how you're getting defensive. You have more to lose if you get disillusioned. You probably are, but are just denying it since you are in charge of a website devoted to Civ after all, and it would really be a blow to your sense of purpose if you stopped defending Firaxis.

great. i'll add "disillusioned" to the list of things i've read about myself over the last years(communist, fascsist, firaxis lackey, etc).


geting lots of feedback back from developers on the problem reports, suggestions and ideas posted in the furums is extremely "cool", but when the most important decisions are taken on the higher levels and with different priorities(cost, economic outcome) it comes down to not being the most critical part of the developer-player relationship

quote: Activision and their abandoning of CTP2.

an excellent example of what i'm talking about. we had some cool people in the development team who often participated in the forums, helped in mods and understood the power of the community by creating the "a-team" during the development of ctp2. ctp1/2 though was badly damaged by the upper managment decisions on marketing and release schedule.

so in the end what do you remember from activision and ctp? the abandoning of the genre after one patch for ctp2 and NOT the nice people who got involved in the community....


at least two firaxians read the forums on daily basis. i log on several times per day and 3 out of 4 times there is a firaxis online as well. one of the most important parts(geting feedback on what people want) in our(the community) relationship with firaxis is therefore achieved. geting back the personal opinion of a firaxian on what "could be nice" is really cool and amazing, but will not mean that the next patch or the next game will be better. the actual response of firaxis to our feedback can NOT be an announcement, an act of PR. the actual response of firaxis is the next patch, the next game.


players care about their game and the improvements to it
posters care about geting a reply
i'm still first a player and then a poster.
what are you?

	08-02-2002 03:04									#9
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG at least two firaxians read the forums on daily basis. i log on several times per day and 3 out of 4 times there is a firaxis online as well. one of the most important parts(geting feedback on what people want) in our(the community) relationship with firaxis is therefore achieved. geting back the personal opinion of a firaxian on what "could be nice" is really cool and amazing, but will not mean that the next patch or the next game will be better. the actual response of firaxis to our feedback can NOT be an announcement, an act of PR. the actual response of firaxis is the next patch, the next game. players care about their game and the improvements to it posters care about geting a reply i'm still first a player and then a poster. what are you?

Both a player and a poster.

The developers of Wizardry 8 released about 4 patches in the first 4 weeks after its release and have been rather silent for a long time now. Why? Because they're done as far as I'm concerned. I finished the game and see nothing else to be patched. I'm sure there might be some really minor, inconsequential bugs that are always inevitably found, that are only discovered in obscure situations, but that's the case with all games.

No-one cares that they are silent, because when everyone's satisfied, why should they say anything? Before that, they were constantly on-line giving people updates on what's going on with their upcoming patch, and giving estimated times of release.

I don't care about "cool" responses. Just a few notes here and then about what they're working on, and how things are coming along. But I guess that's too much to ask.

	08-02-2002 03:30									#10
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I'm sure for legal reasons (and a great deal of past negative experiences here) that can't post exactly what they are working on. Many companies have non-disclosure aggreements that prohibit employees from talking about works in progress. (I don't know if this is true at Firaxis or not, but it is the norm at many companies.)

	08-02-2002 04:42									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Pembleton But I have been involved in many forums with many different games, and Firaxis had formerly been quite active in communicating with players until after they made their first patch. It's most likely because the non-stop repetition of same complaints here in the general forum, but they need to develop thicker skins, and ignore the noise while responding to actual constructive criticism. Instead, they have fallen completely silent.

You make this sound like an isolated incident, but it's not. I've received several replies from them myself, including a couple from Soren. Which would you rather they did, hang out on this forum and answer each and every question directed at them, or working to improve the game? They don't have time for both!

	08-02-2002 04:52									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Willem You make this sound like an isolated incident, but it's not. I've received several replies from them myself, including a couple from Soren. Which would you rather they did, hang out on this forum and answer each and every question directed at them, or working to improve the game? They don't have time for both!

I guess my whole point is being missed. My point was that I can't be sure that they're even working on a patch. I posted a thread a couple/few weeaks ago asking if they were and received no response.

Someone else posted almost the same topic. Still no resolution to the matter.

You seem to be implying that they are working on a patch. I wish I had the same access of info that you did. And I'm also asking that they state what they are working on and a possible release projection. That's it. I don't need anymore than that. Does that really take too much time out fo their work schedule?

Someone pointed out about legal problems. If that's true, then I guess I shouldn't complain. But no-one has stated definitively about that either.

I seem to recall Soren giving indications of what they were working about before their first patch. This policy has changed.

	08-02-2002 04:54									#13
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MarkG, the point really is the incompleteness of the game in its original form. It created the need for dialogue.

A company always has to maintain some sort of dialogue with tis customers, as creative projects don't always go by timetables and compromises have to be made, and dialogue can help provide fallback.

Simply, someone has to get across to people they did not buy a pig in a poke but rather a work in progress, and it has to come from the company. And I think what we have seen is what happens when that message is not strong enough.

I understand why they would throw up their hands at this. I also understand your bafflement at people's not undrstanding, because you have noticed as have I that many of the people who call for Firaxis involvement have no idea - or no rational idea - what that would be like to do what they suggest. It so easy for the friendly "web-presence" to turn into the guy who always says no and gets flamed by two-year-olds with keyboards. I've seen people from companies get nowhere on forums at much time sink as people jockey for position to supposedly influence whatever. Staying above the fray isn't that easy, and gloaming any useful help from the shouting can be tough.

Actually, I give Firaxis a lot of credit for showing up. You can turn this whole issue around and see that they are the only people who do seem to care, in any meaningful capacity anyway. Infogrames?

Still, obvious things that could have been done weren't, quality assurances were not made - but any questions anyone has now are only going to be answered by product. It's just waiting goes better with hope.

	08-02-2002 05:27									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Pembleton You seem to be implying that they are working on a patch. I wish I had the same access of info that you did. And I'm also asking that they state what they are working on and a possible release projection. That's it. I don't need anymore than that. Does that really take too much time out fo their work schedule?

All I've done is prowl around here for awhile. One thing I can tell you, after reading a post made by Jeff in a response to another poster, that there's going to be more player setup options, no doubt dealing with corruption and resources. Though he didn't say so specifically. And as you can see in the news area, they have started to gather their beta testers together, so I'd say it won't be to long before it's ready for release.

	08-02-2002 06:00									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Willem One thing I can tell you, after reading a post made by Jeff in a response to another poster, that there's going to be more player setup options, no doubt dealing with corruption and resources. Though he didn't say so specifically.

So no word on stacks...

	08-02-2002 06:16									#16
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Well, that certainly was good of Mike.

	08-02-2002 06:29									#17
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Uh-uh. yin26 likes you. Hope you're up to date on your shots.

	08-02-2002 06:47									#18
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Well, I hope that editor is released in a patch, but, I suppose I'll put my faith in Firaxis.

	08-02-2002 13:20									#19
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quote: Originally posted by ACooper I'm sure for legal reasons (and a great deal of past negative experiences here) that can't post exactly what they are working on. Many companies have non-disclosure aggreements that prohibit employees from talking about works in progress. (I don't know if this is true at Firaxis or not, but it is the norm at many companies.)

If this is indeed the case, someone should mention it to Sid. He's been doing the Right Thing - talked about upcoming patches and what's in them - at the SimGolf web forum.

Now, Sid, being Sid, might possibly be in a position to take liberties no one else at Firaxis dares even dream about. But facts are that they do talk whenever Sid deems it nice to do and that they have explained their silence here with not wanting to raise undue hopes, as it were.

Which means that they think that the SimGolf audience is mature enough to deal with the vagaries of undelivered promises while the Civ audience isn't. I'm a bit amazed by that, but it's their call.

Doesn't mean I have to like it, though.

And I fully intened to show my appreciation for both the game delivered and their response polices as far as patching is considered with my wallet next time Firaxis releases a product.

	08-02-2002 18:22									#20
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quote: Originally posted by moominparatrooper Which means that they think that the SimGolf audience is mature enough to deal with the vagaries of undelivered promises while the Civ audience isn't. I'm a bit amazed by that, but it's their call.

Why do so many people automatically instill their actions/inactions with some sort of motivation? You don't know what's going on behind the scenes, no one does. So how can you possibly jump to any conclusions as to why they're doing things as they are.

	08-02-2002 18:31									#21
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quote: Originally posted by moominparatrooper Which means that they think that the SimGolf audience is mature enough to deal with the vagaries of undelivered promises while the Civ audience isn't.

or they are trying to increase interest for a game that has just been released (and which had no previous sequels or any big hype behind it and thus any kind of huge expectations)

a different situation, a different decision. nothing amazing

	08-02-2002 18:34									#22
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quote: Originally posted by moominparatrooper Which means that they think that the SimGolf audience is mature enough to deal with the vagaries of undelivered promises while the Civ audience isn't. I'm a bit amazed by that, but it's their call.

That is definately true, the Civ audience is not mature enough.

At least not from the way things look around here.

edit:
Another thing to notice. - It's a company sponsored web site and a different publisher. That explains alot.