09-02-2002 03:30									#31
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I believe they were nationalists supported by fascists (Italy, Hitly) and became associated w/ them and were considered fascists.
So i got this poll right too (well, the textbook answer, at least)

	09-02-2002 04:03									#32
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Yes they were Fascists, but Franco refered to the movement as the Nationalist movement.

The two sides (textbook answer) are the Republicans and Nationalists.

	09-02-2002 04:08									#33
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Showing my myopic American self for what it is, I misread the question as Spanish-American War, so I voted wrong.

	09-02-2002 04:18									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yes they were Fascists, but Franco refered to the movement as the Nationalist movement.

Who cares about Franco? He could have called his movement the Donald Duck movement for all I care, it doesn´t change anything.

But as you say, the textbook answer is republican and nationalist.

BTW In Swedish textbooks they´re referred to as either fascists or falangists...

	09-02-2002 04:20									#35
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quote: Originally posted by GePap OK, who's the fool who thought that they would pick oneof each?!

	09-02-2002 04:25									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Deity Dude Showing my myopic American self for what it is, I misread the question as Spanish-American War, so I voted wrong.

Didn't the choices look rather odd to you? I mean, if I was asked "Who fought in the Spanish-American War," I'd expect "Spain" and "USA" as two options...

	09-02-2002 04:56									#37
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Franco statred as a monachist, then migrated to a tradisionalist (all the old ways except the monachy) co-opted the facists in his coalistion, then was somewhat co-opted by them. He had a few metamorphasis, but that is commonly the case with leading persons in multifactional civil wars. The spanish civil war did a great deal of good for the USA. A significant portion of our commies and socialists got their fool asses killed, relieving us of their burden in the following critical years.

Last edited by Lefty Scaevola on 09-02-2002 at 05:09

	09-02-2002 04:56									#38
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quote: BTW In Swedish textbooks they´re referred to as either fascists or falangists...

The Falangists were a group separated inside the fascists equivalent to the Nazi´s SS.

In Spain we denominate "rebeldes" (rebellious) to fascists , because they were revealed against the legitimate government of the republic.

The "nationalistic" denomination, though historically admitted, dont like to us, since it was invented by Franco to "dignify" his subversion.

	09-02-2002 05:08									#39
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quote: Originally posted by thorgalaeg the legitimate government of the republic.

Given the very dubious history of the last republican goverments, such a the deposition of the president because he was a moderate, and failing to make intervention in the long period of violence against it opponents (including nearly 400 arson attacks against churches) prior to the revolution, I would term that the "not entirely illegitimate government"

	09-02-2002 06:27									#40
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Lefty, don't you DARE talk about Spain!

I'm with Ramo on this. There were 3 sides on this conflict: Revolution - Counterevolution - Fascism. The first two were supposed to fight together against the 3rd, but they couldn't help but fight eachother, since it is their definition to do so. Covertly of course. Revolution was the big loser of this.

This was a bad poll. Please don't make historical polls on issues that history has not decided yet.

And of course...

VISCA POUM!

	09-02-2002 06:30									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Historically there are two main sides.

Yes. The Falangists and a loose messy confederation of unions, collectives, internationalist brigadists and an assortment of leftist, fascist hating folk, socialists, communists and anarchists.

	09-02-2002 06:40									#42
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El, exactly. The Nationalists and the Republicans.

And axi, Lefty probably knows more about history than you do in your pinky finger.

	09-02-2002 10:17									#43
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Except that the Republicans weren't really a "side", there was so much internal fighting.

	09-02-2002 11:14									#44
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It doesn't matter... they were still loosely connected to one side.

	09-02-2002 12:39									#45
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It isn't necessarily accurate to call Franco a fascist, he's a lot closer to Latin American military dictators than to either Mussolini or Franco, the relatively moderate (for fascists) Falangists were part of Franco's side but they got borged pretty effectively.

The Moroccan nationalists weren't anywhere close to being another side, pretty much all they did in Spanish Morocco during the Civil War is hide out there from the French.

As far as why the Republic lost the war there's two main causes. The first is the the Moroccan Regulares were damn good fighters that without the Nationalists wouldn't have standed a change, after all the initial uprising only netted them around a fifth of spain and only about half of the Spanish army. Also when the civil started the armies units that stayed loyal to the Republic had their officer corps purged nearly out of existance, this made the Republican army pretty much defunct and the militias became the de facto republican army. The communists then did everything they could to undermine the power of the militias and then rebuilt a regular army while the militias held the fronts with the dregs of the Republic's weopons. If either the Republican army units had been left intact, if the communists etc. had placed their full support behind the militias and cooperated with the anarchists instead of making destructive power-grabs then Franco would probably have been crushed.

	09-02-2002 13:54									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola Given the very dubious history of the last republican goverments, such a the deposition of the president because he was a moderate, and failing to make intervention in the long period of violence against it opponents (including nearly 400 arson attacks against churches) prior to the revolution, I would term that the "not entirely illegitimate government"

The republican governments in Spain made a lot of mistakes, but they were democratically elected, so I can't see how a military coup d'etat could be justified.
I'm a bit tired of people who believes in the freedom and democracy... excepting when they lose the ellections.

About the arson attacks... never wondered why? Why the poorest people attacked churchs, and not banks? What can provoke a man's hate so much? The Church in Spain is guilty on many crimes, and was an active agent of the fascists. After the attacks and before them. When an institution like Church mixes in politics and social revolutions, these things can happen. We can't imagine what were thinking the people who attacked churchs, because we didn't live those times; but I've read a lot of books by people who lived then and I can have an idea.

	09-02-2002 14:03									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Zhu Yuanzhang Also when the civil started the armies units that stayed loyal to the Republic had their officer corps purged nearly out of existance, this made the Republican army pretty much defunct and the militias became the de facto republican army. The communists then did everything they could to undermine the power of the militias and then rebuilt a regular army while the militias held the fronts with the dregs of the Republic's weopons. If either the Republican army units had been left intact, if the communists etc. had placed their full support behind the militias and cooperated with the anarchists instead of making destructive power-grabs then Franco would probably have been crushed.

Let me tell you a true story about militians. A friend of my grandfather, who was an army officer, was in charge of a militians group in the mountains around Madrid.
During the day, the militians were one of the best infantery in the world, and they conquered enemy positions almost without effort (but with any losses). But when the sun came down, then left to Madrid to have a party time, so the nationalists re-conquered their positions without shooting a singel bullet. And that happened every day. The officer finally deserted, because he was a professional and couldn't resist it.

The militians could never have won the war, because they were desorganized and chaotic. And no war can be won without an organization.

	09-02-2002 16:49									#48
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quote: As far as why the Republic lost the war there's two main causes. The first is the the Moroccan Regulares were damn good fighters that without the Nationalists wouldn't have standed a change, after all the initial uprising only netted them around a fifth of spain and only about half of the Spanish army. Also when the civil started the armies units that stayed loyal to the Republic had their officer corps purged nearly out of existance, this made the Republican army pretty much defunct and the militias became the de facto republican army. The communists then did everything they could to undermine the power of the militias and then rebuilt a regular army while the militias held the fronts with the dregs of the Republic's weopons. If either the Republican army units had been left intact, if the communists etc. had placed their full support behind the militias and cooperated with the anarchists instead of making destructive power-grabs then Franco would probably have been crushed.

Franco won the war thanks to the most important help, in material and in men, that he received of Germany and Italy, whereas the western "democratic" governments (Actually all right). did not do anything for helping the republicans. This was taken by the fascists as a weakness of west, and it was one of the reasons of the second world war.

quote: The spanish civil war did a great deal of good for the USA. A significant portion of our commies and socialists got their fool asses killed, relieving us of their burden in the following critical years.

quote: Given the very dubious history of the last republican goverments, such a the deposition of the president because he was a moderate, and failing to make intervention in the long period of violence against it opponents (including nearly 400 arson attacks against churches) prior to the revolution, I would term that the "not entirely illegitimate government"

Lefty, I believe that someone who is glad about the death of his compatriots because they are politically different is not morally qualified to criticize any government.

	09-02-2002 18:46									#49
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quote: And axi, Lefty probably knows more about history than you do in your pinky finger.

He may or may not know more history than I do, but I'm not sure he understands it's meaning.

	09-02-2002 21:37									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And the anarchists destroyed Republicanism as a viable force in Spain.

Ramo is correct, it was a three way war, despite what high schools will teach you.

Republicanism was never a viable force in Spain after the Falange revolt. The Republican Spanish government was about to roll over and accept the coup when the CNT-CAI opened up the armories and armed the workers. Had the Anarchists gone all the way, and overthrown the the Republicans themselves, they might have stood a chance, but they ignored it (which is a classical mistake of anarchism), which gave the Republicans a breathing space.

Ignored by the Western governments, who feared backing a workers' revolt in Spain (which might spread to them--France had experienced the first worker take-overs of factories that year and Britain's General Strike was only ten years in the past), the Republicans were forced to turn to the Soviet Union, who sent suppplies and money through the Spanish CP, which turned them from an unimportant minor organization on the left, to the most important group in Spain within a year.

Contrary to Ramo's assertion of 2 years, the Revolution in Spain didn't even last a full year before it was crushed by the Communist-Republican alliance (11 months, June 1936 - May 1937). With the heart of the resistence to the Falange broken, it was only a matter of time before the Republican govenment fell.

	09-02-2002 21:59									#51
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quote: Originally posted by thorgalaeg The Falangists were a group separated inside the fascists equivalent to the Nazi´s SS. In Spain we denominate "rebeldes" (rebellious) to fascists , because they were revealed against the legitimate government of the republic. The "nationalistic" denomination, though historically admitted, dont like to us, since it was invented by Franco to "dignify" his subversion.

Interesting... I never heard that before, It´s not like you would confuse SS with NSDAP

	09-02-2002 22:08									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X Interesting... I never heard that before, It´s not like you would confuse SS with NSDAP

Me neither. I always heard that the Falange was the poltical party of the fascists in Spain.

	09-02-2002 22:57									#53
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Me neither. I always heard that the Falange was the poltical party of the fascists in Spain.

You're right. It seems like Thorg made a mistake.

	09-02-2002 23:04									#54
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Ramo is correct, it was a three way war, despite what high schools will teach you.

The point of the quiz was to see what they tought you in high school, since that's about all I expect someone who says they know history to know. Any more is extra, which is perfectly fine, since I love history. Obviously, givig some sort of simple quiz is difficult when everyone OVERTHINKS it.

	09-02-2002 23:13									#55
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Most of us are wayyyyy beyond your typical high school eduacation, even those on the boards who are still in high school. If you wanted to limit it to high school, shoulda said so in the quiz. Almost everyone here is an autodidact or college educated or both.

	09-02-2002 23:29									#56
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College education means squat, if you went to school and picked all your classes, and none were history. What did you learn then? Besides, plenty of people have gotten things wrong on the other quizzes, so there is plenty of ignorance out there. Besides, on the whole instructions point, I did. I said, pick the side's names, what they called themselves, not what you thought of their political ideology.Many groups can hate each other, even fight each other, but still see themselves as part of a group identity [the fight is about who is the true group].

	10-02-2002 00:30									#57
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quote: The Anarchists and Stalinists never developed compromise.

The Anarchists were compromising all the time. Hell, they practically comprimised the revolution itself for the sake of unity against the Fascists!

quote: And if you say the Anarchists had better military competancy, why did they get surpressed in the first place .

First and foremost, because the anarchists were suppressed by the police, not the army; in their homes, not in the battlefield. Furthermore, the Republicans had Soviet arms and a far larger force to carry out the counter-revolution with. Finally, the revolutionary forces (particularly the CNT-FAI) allowed the counter-revolution to go too far before doing anything.

quote: Contrary to Ramo's assertion of 2 years

Imran's assertion of two years.

quote: Many groups can hate each other, even fight each other

But if two groups fight each other, they are, by definition, not on the same side!

	10-02-2002 01:28									#58
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Considering how Franco's opponents regularly torched Churches and were militantly anti-Catholic, the RCC can hardly be faulted for it's position in this war.

	10-02-2002 01:41									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Considering how Franco's opponents regularly torched Churches and were militantly anti-Catholic, the RCC can hardly be faulted for it's position in this war.

Of course, but.. what caused that anti-Catholicism? I repeat my former question: Why the poorest people burn churchs and not banks (after taking the money, of course)? The answer is, because the attitude of the RCC in spain during the whole 19th century and the 1st third of the 20th century wasn't as innocent as it should have been. The church was a privilegiated class, and it worked for its own interests against the poorest classes. The RCC in spain was a faction that fought against the republic since it was established.