08-02-2002 11:17									#1
	Let's Help Firaxis (No, I'm Being Serious!) Put an end to popups!

Really! Judging by the polls a significant number of people aren't happy with Civ III and only a minority are really thrilled with it. But I'm not going to suggest more complaining (really, well maybe more later) because I think I have a better idea - let's make Firaxis's job easier! Let's design the game for them - no, I'm still being serious here.

After we are done we can submit a master design document to them - Civ III is going to make a mint (despite the flaws) but they know a sequel that makes 1/3 of their core customers unhappy kills a franchise (Batman, anyone?). So let's work together and create a Civ they can make even more money from and that we'd love. I call it a win/win senario and if Firaxis won't do it I think others might. So where to begin? How about the good things of Civ III?

Culture (*)
Resources (*)
An Early Aggressive AI
Diplomacy/Trade
Unique Civs (with Unique Units)
Leaders

(*) Since you can culturally assimilate an enemy city or shaft an opponent by denying them a resource this is fair since they can do the same to you.

So really just add the best of Civ, Civ2, SMAC, to the best of Civ3 to make a winner!

First Focus - the Tech Tree
Suggestions/Overview

1. Remove the Age Limitation...yeah it's realistic (sort of) but it really, really limits what players can do by eliminating options.

2. Far Fewer Dead-End Techs...since these don't lead anywhere they also limit a players options and encourage a linear game

3. More Techs...but all techs should have a point or purpose - no useless speedbumps (Philosophy and Polytheism are now in themselves useless).

4. Techs can be used to resolve other game issues...

Geology
The computer secretly places hidden resources on the map. When a civilization discovers Geology these hidden resources appear!

Explosives
Workers get the new order Demotions - basically blow up a mountain and transform it into a hill. Bombardment can now kill units.

History
All your Ancient buildings produce extra culture since now they are better appreciated by your people. Build Smithsonian Museum - no benefit but more culture than any other wonder!

Hacking (from Computers, naturally)
Resets one (only usable once) civs research back

Patriotism (from Democracy)
Gives your cities more resistance to culture flipping, also build the Statue of Liberty which converts foreign nationals into your citizens much faster.

Biological Engineering (from Genetic Engineering)
For Bio-Weapons of course. I miss Atrocities! Plus you can build the Pollution-Eating Microbe Small Wonder

Modern Agriculture (from Genetic Engineering)
All cities produce 1 extra food in their home space (seems small but over 50 turns you'll really notice the effect)

Genetical Modified Food (from Modern Agriculture)
Extra food from irrigated Tundra and Deserts

Internet (from Computers)
Research bonus for libraries, universities, and research labs, plus one unhappy citizen content, opens a lot of research paths

Trench Warfare
Defense bonus to non-mounted infantry units (popular during WW I)

Formations
A bonus to fortified units (less than than Trench Warfare) and gives Spearmen X2 Defense bonus vs mounted units (Pikemen are just Spearmen with a formation)

Greek Fire
Make those catapults really, really dangerous!

Shipbuilding
Vikings anyone? - makes a longboat - moves 2 spaces, carries 1 unit. A weaker (but pre-requisit for the) galley.

Breeding
A definate Arabian Advance, give +1 defense to mounted units and mountained treated as plains for movement purposes, better retreat possibilities

Psychology
Makes Universities make 1 person content and allows a Spy to Create Disorder (make 1 citizen unhappy in a non-capitol enemy
city)

Leadership, Advanced Leadership, Tactics, Advanced Tactics
Allows the building of an army with 2, 3, 4, or 5 units allowed (Pentagon increases this by +1 of course).

Capitalism
Creates a new City option - relocate production. You can now spend 3 turns to create a network to any other city you are linked to by road, railroad, harbor, or airport and can have city A send to city B 1 unit of food, production, or commerce (New York isn't known for it's farms after all). Better, send food to a starving civ and make friends!

Advanced Tactics (an add on)
Build helicopters - Attack or Transport Type. Transport Copters hold 1 non-mounted unit (Infantry, Marines, etc)

Heavy Aviation
Build gigantic planes - to airlift Tanks and Modern Armor

Machinery
To build Mills (think early +25% production factories)

Globalism
To trade with the rest of the (non-civ) world as if were a civ (in itself), maybe they have only old techs but you should be able to get some resources/luxeries from them (even if at a high cost)

Bureacracy, Judiciary
Build Provincial Capitals and Supreme Court to lower corruption

Herbalism, Germ Theory
To block plagues and disease from flood plains and jungles

Propaganda (after Psychology)
Easier to convert cities, your armies get an Attack bonus or no penalty to drafting 1 citizen a turn

Contraception (a negative Advance) <- Optional
All cities/metropoli lose 1 food unless producing 0 excess food - represents the slowed growth of population but 1 unhappy citizen made content

Stoneworking <- Very early
Build City Walls and the Sphinx

E-Commerce (after Computers of course)
Currently Wealth transforms Productions into Gold at a 8:1 ratio.
Economics should imprvoe this to 4:1 and E-Commerce to 2:1.

Nuclear Theory, Nuclear Research, Nuclear Weaponry
Now make these a deadend each one after the other! Basically force a player to learn 3-4 techs to build nukes (they do transform the game after all) and have the first nuke cost 800 shields to build! Then 700 for the second, 600 for the third, etc.

Media (after Printing Press)
Reduces Corruption a little (as should Radio and Television). Maybe a random factor that the Media will be "hawkish" or "doveish"

Advanced Engineering
For canals, silos (you don't stick nukes in cities!) and other big projects

Theocracy/Facism
Definitely both belong in the game!
Thocracy units should get a +25% combat bonus when fighting to retake a city of theirs.

Eugenics (after Facism) <- Optional
Build bigger/better soldiers - lowers other governments opinions of you

Feudalism (reworked)
As a Government! You turn over a city or cities to a local regent and Corruption is now measured from the regents capital! Downside - now he's basically another Civ and will be loyal to you - unless you do weaken yourself or hurt a city under his control or he accepts a bribe! You maybe also now Offer Vassilage to a Civ you are beating.

"The Citizens of Denver revolt again your cruel reign and proclaim themselves independant. Beware the Denverians might!"

Security
Lets you know when a city is going to flip before it does and weakens spies against you

Negotation
Not only improved dealing with other Civs but allows your units to bribe Barbarians to joining you! Allows Megna Carta Small Wonder (lowers Corruption)

Enlightenment
Like Philosophy - gives 1 Advance - branches to many Advances, allows Renaissance Small Wonder - civilization is allowed 2 Golden Ages (or 1 if he already had 1). Also allows Artist citizen who creates 1 Culture point/turn.

Direct Democracy (after Internet)
Even better commerce than Democracy but war and economy are huge risks for it

Socialism
Government - lose Commerce, war weariness, but cheaper to build infrastructure, slower growth, slow pollution

Unified Government
Despotism 2.0, you may Pay or Whip things to hurry them and your Commerce is better but you don't get along with other governments much. Has Master Plan button for Domestic Advisor - lose 1 pop in each city but trigger a Golden Age at will which will last 5-15 turns.

Libertarian (a Government)
All your Governors now control your cities, all you do is move military units. Great for commerce but you must spend gold to motivate a governor to build what you want instead of what he wants.

Assembly Line (after Machinery)
+1 Production in all cities, +1 for Factories, +1 for Manufacturing plant

Anthropology <-Optional
A minor Civ appears somewhere (only when first discovered - discovering civ has contact with them - other civs do not).

Artificial Environment
Discovered before Space parts can be built, allows for Lunar Colony (extra happyness, research, and culture, and build Space parts for 90% standard cost) but requires 1000 Production

Guilds
Gives bonus to Marketplaces, allows Warehouses to be built. In Warehouses owning cities a city can build Supplies for 50 shields and then use Supplies to build things - think non-moving carvans - can be moved after Capitalism)

Social Mobility
+1 happy face in capitol, Civs with the Expansionist attribute can now build Settlers for 1 Pop each!

Masochism
Your citizens grow to like cruel oppression! Using "the whip" makes citizens happy! (Geez, I need to go to sleep)

Okay, any other ideas? I'm spent!

	08-02-2002 11:33									#2
	Tired of ads?

Proverbs 11
22
Like a gold ring in a pig's snout ...

	08-02-2002 12:05									#3
	Totally lost Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Am I a beautiful woman? I'm so confused.

	08-02-2002 12:08									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

LOL! You could be, I suppose. Good work on the rest of the quote. You know, just The Word of God helping us to decide if your great idea (gold ring) is worth putting in the Firaxis PR machine (pig's snout).

However, I wish you (honestly) the best of luck should you decide to move forward.

	08-02-2002 12:16									#5
	So, I'm not a beautiful woman, can I at least date one? Got spare money?

Join in! Some talk about how we're so negative, yada, yada, yada. I thought this was a good place to introduce new ideas and hopefully move the game forward to a better sequel. Most of the mod polls I've read show people like the mods more than the original game!

I think a great Civ 4 is possible and I'm willing to add in what I can.

	08-02-2002 12:44									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

civ 1 = 1991, civ 2 = 1996, civ 3 = 2001, civ 4 = 2006?

Or near enough to it anyway. Are you really gearing up for a game that's 4 - 5 years away? And even if it is going to happen probably wont even start development for another couple of years?

Focus on what can be done with civ 3, or some other game entirely, because civ 4 is a long long way away.

	08-02-2002 12:46									#7
	Suffering from ads?

Speaking of Biblical pigs...

"Cast not thy pearls before swine"

... seems pretty appropriate here, too.

	08-02-2002 12:48									#8
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Nice ideas Roy. Well, maybe except for the Masochism part.

I don't see what is negative about your ideas. I think you are being constructive. I'll bet that a few mod makers are making some notes from your list, if not Firaxians themselves.

Keep on civin

Salve

	08-02-2002 12:56									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Nice idea, but this forum can't agree on the colour of the sky.
(Kinda red going for greyey/white).

Robert

	08-02-2002 13:24									#10
	Got spare money?

I'm patient, if I live to 2006 I'd at least like to still play Civ4 (I'll be 38 and I'll be gaming till they stick me in a retirement center somewhere).

Personally I'd be thrilled if a Mod maker used even half of my ideas.

	08-02-2002 16:55									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

good to see a constructive thread

	08-02-2002 17:06									#12
	Suffering from ads?

Join Us...

	08-02-2002 17:34									#13
	Tired of ads?

some of those ideas are excellent Roy, i hope the Firaxians have had a chance to read these!

nice thread, better than the moaning drivel which litters the forums.

	08-02-2002 19:31									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

good post but useless. this is complete waste of time. they are not going to implement this. Asking them for so much in a patch is ridiculous. Even in an expansion.

	08-02-2002 22:43									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Dida good post but useless. this is complete waste of time. they are not going to implement this. Asking them for so much in a patch is ridiculous. Even in an expansion.

Yes, they will not implement this. But most of the ideas are interesting, and could be used by modders of even by Firaxis itself. Plus, it is nice to see some positivity around here, just to change things a little bit...

	08-02-2002 22:55									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I must disagree with Dida. Even if many/most of the (excellent!) ideas here don't get implemented, the exercise of creativity is most certainly NOT a waste of time.



-=Vel=-

	08-02-2002 23:00									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx I must disagree with Dida. Even if many/most of the (excellent!) ideas here don't get implemented, the exercise of creativity is most certainly NOT a waste of time.

True.

	08-02-2002 23:12									#18
	Re: Let's Help Firaxis (No, I'm Being Serious!) Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Roy H Smith Culture (*) Resources (*) An Early Aggressive AI Diplomacy/Trade Unique Civs (with Unique Units) Leaders Geology The computer secretly places hidden resources on the map. When a civilization discovers Geology these hidden resources appear! Explosives Workers get the new order Demotions - basically blow up a mountain and transform it into a hill. Bombardment can now kill units. History All your Ancient buildings produce extra culture since now they are better appreciated by your people. Build Smithsonian Museum - no benefit but more culture than any other wonder! Genetical Modified Food (from Modern Agriculture) Extra food from irrigated Tundra and Deserts Internet (from Computers) Research bonus for libraries, universities, and research labs, plus one unhappy citizen content, opens a lot of research paths Trench Warfare Defense bonus to non-mounted infantry units (popular during WW I) Formations A bonus to fortified units (less than than Trench Warfare) and gives Spearmen X2 Defense bonus vs mounted units (Pikemen are just Spearmen with a formation) Breeding A definate Arabian Advance, give +1 defense to mounted units and mountained treated as plains for movement purposes, better retreat possibilities Capitalism Creates a new City option - relocate production. You can now spend 3 turns to create a network to any other city you are linked to by road, railroad, harbor, or airport and can have city A send to city B 1 unit of food, production, or commerce (New York isn't known for it's farms after all). Better, send food to a starving civ and make friends! Heavy Aviation Build gigantic planes - to airlift Tanks and Modern Armor Machinery To build Mills (think early +25% production factories) Bureacracy, Judiciary Build Provincial Capitals and Supreme Court to lower corruption Nuclear Theory, Nuclear Research, Nuclear Weaponry Now make these a deadend each one after the other! Theocracy/Facism Definitely both belong in the game! Thocracy units should get a +25% combat bonus when fighting to retake a city of theirs. Eugenics (after Facism) <- Optional Build bigger/better soldiers - lowers other governments opinions of you Security Lets you know when a city is going to flip before it does and weakens spies against you Socialism Government - lose Commerce, war weariness, but cheaper to build infrastructure, slower growth, slow pollution Assembly Line (after Machinery) +1 Production in all cities, +1 for Factories, +1 for Manufacturing plant Artificial Environment Discovered before Space parts can be built, allows for Lunar Colony (extra happyness, research, and culture, and build Space parts for 90% standard cost) but requires 1000 Production Guilds Gives bonus to Marketplaces, allows Warehouses to be built. In Warehouses owning cities a city can build Supplies for 50 shields and then use Supplies to build things - think non-moving carvans - can be moved after Capitalism) Social Mobility +1 happy face in capitol, Civs with the Expansionist attribute can now build Settlers for 1 Pop each! Masochism Your citizens grow to like cruel oppression! Using "the whip" makes citizens happy! (Geez, I need to go to sleep)

Only this seems fair to me

	08-02-2002 23:13									#19
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Ah, it remindes me the list of ideas for Firaxis! We used to have a separate forum for it, you know?

It's good to have good intentions Roy, but I can't stop thinking if Firaxis has enough human resources to improve Civ to the level we would like it.

	08-02-2002 23:27									#20
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Dida they are not going to implement this. Asking them for so much in a patch is ridiculous. Even in an expansion.

OTOH, many of the suggestions are perfect examples of what should be possible with an enhanced editor.

	09-02-2002 01:28									#21
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Great ideas man but I think they'd only use it for civ4! But that's ok, I like civ3

"runs out of the room hding his face...."

	09-02-2002 01:52									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I'm glad most people liked my short list. Personally I'm responsible for a some of the negativity (but even I must bow to Lord Yin ) but I still feel that less isn't more, more is more.

And its sort of unfair to pile on Firaxis without balancing out things that I do like or did want.

As for it being a waste of time...well moders ("mod"ers) are welcome to use my ideas (and don't we all want to beat up Hitler and his Fascist government?) so maybe this will have an impact after all.

And Civ4 is coming...you know it and I know it...a unique, fan created game would give them EXCELLENT publicity, plus they wouldn't have to pay us anything (although if they offered me job as a game designer....hmmmmm Civ5?).

So they'd just have programming costs and an almost unique marketing concept (Team Fortress for Half-Life was fan designed and that definately pushed Half-Life to the next level)...so low risk/high reward.....what's not to like?

	09-02-2002 02:57									#23
	Suffering from ads?

Great job Roy.
Lots of good ideas. In some future time when I get around to starting to customise CIv3 for the way I like to play, I suspect a good number of your ideas will make it in.

Keep up the good work!!!!!

Peace

	09-02-2002 04:06									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat True.

There is not much to add.

BTW did Firaxis sue a modder, didn't they? So be careful with your creativity.

-Martin

	09-02-2002 04:09									#25
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann BTW did Firaxis sue a modder, didn't they? So be careful with your creativity.

Infogrames issued a Cease And Desist Order on a translation project.

	09-02-2002 09:24									#26
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Infogrames issued a Cease And Desist Order on a translation project.

Wouldn't a translation open up new markets, where they could sell even MORE games?

And the people doing the translation are doing it for FREE?

Sounds like good business to let them keep it going!

But perhaps I am missing something vital... after all, I don't own a big profitable software games company...

	09-02-2002 09:52									#27
	I agree Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

There were so many varieties in the tech tree in Civ 2.

The game has become so linear

WE NEED MORE TECHS!!!

But i know they will have to put out an expansion pack to suck in more $$$

	09-02-2002 10:03									#28
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Captain Wouldn't a translation open up new markets, where they could sell even MORE games? And the people doing the translation are doing it for FREE? Sounds like good business to let them keep it going! But perhaps I am missing something vital... after all, I don't own a big profitable software games company...

What you are missing is that by allowing third parties to translate the civ files the copyrights could be weakened.

Copyright can not be selectively enforced in some circumstances. Once you let Joe translate it then your rights to the game may be diminished. If you do nothing, then Bob can do the same thing. When you go after Bob because he is doing something you really dislike, he may successfully argue that you let Joe do it.

Also, Joe then owns the rights to the translation that he produced. If it were published (for instance over the internet) then he could sue Infogrames if their language in their translation came to close to his.

I am NOT a lawyer, but from my limited knowledge, these are some of the problems with allowing the fan based German translation project to continue. Hence the cease and desist order.

Salve

	09-02-2002 15:29									#29
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann BTW did Firaxis sue a modder, didn't they? So be careful with your creativity.

that was infogrames and had NOTHING to do with changing game rules or adding units or anything like that...

	09-02-2002 19:29									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I've said this before and I'll keep saying this again: if you want to make a game better do it where your own efforts can make a difference. In the case of Civilization that means : Freeciv, Civ-evo and Clash of Civilizations

And for those who still don't get the point I'm trying to make: Firaxis and Infogrammes are COMMERCIAL COMPANIES. They don't own you any 'favours' just because you're a fan.
As several people (both pro and contro Civ3) have pointed they're doing it to earn money, not for the sake of the fans.
And should a customer have further problems or gripes with the game (bugs, gameplay, missing features whatever...) it should be THEIR PROBLEM to solve, not the consumer himself.

And they'll support the game as long as it's financially feasible...that means the clock is ticking: Tick..Tick...tick....

So what are you going to do with your suggestions /ideas/efforts? Post them in a forum to get a few responses and see them fade back to page 10? Or try your hand on a community effort that will be far more rewarding in the long term?

It's your own choice that makes a difference, remember that.