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mactbone
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Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven
Sep 2001
time: 23:17
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Let me put it to you this way, Omniscient means "knowing all". OK, if I know ALL, then obviously I would know everything that was, and everything that will be. So, if I know everything that will be, then it is already laid out, just waiting for the actors to take their places. So, there is no deviation, ther can BE no deviation. Therefore, a belief in Christianity and the Judeo-Christian God, implies a belief in pre-destination.
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Lars-E
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Knowing that you go to hell doesn't mean that God wants you to go to hell. Knowing and wanting are not the same.
I'm sure predestination is nice and comfy and suits the fancies of ppl. Just lay back and let anything happen cos you're a robot with no free will. The text has been given and you have to read it.
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mactbone
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Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven
Sep 2001
time: 23:17
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I never said I believed in PD, I said that is basically what Christians believe in when they say they have an omniscient god. Actually, if god created each individual (which I know is not the view of all Christians by any means), and he is omniscient, then he created certain people to go to hell.
BTW, hell was a later creation, along with satan. Remeber, back in the ancient timess, most people couldn't concieve of an entirely evil entity. Consider Socrates, and his trial. He wonders why the Athenians think that he is corrupting the youth, because he would never do it knowingly, he knew that if he corrupted them, that they would beat him, etc. He doesn't understand why anyone would do evil, he says that people only do evil, because they are ignorant of whether it is right or worng. Obviously severely different from Judeo-Christian thought.
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Lars-E
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This doesn't change the fact that the church doesn't believe in it even though you feel they must due to an omniscient God.
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Lars-E
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I'm not talking about a specific denomination. Overall.
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Lars-E
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quote:
Originally posted by Goingonit
My knowledge of Psalms seems to need some work. But as for religion, I stopped learning after Deutoronomy.
Only in your religion.  Being Jewish, I have a much less touchy-feely God. |
I don't think it's a matter of being touchy/feely.
Psalms is one of the books in the bible.
I think that the Jahve is the same God in Christianity and in Judentum. The OT is shared by both religions. The Jews seem to have add-ons though that they place great importance on. The Talmud?
What's with the orthodox tying little boxes with scriptures on themselves? The bible commands this, but it is a command to learn the Word and pass it on and not treat it in such a ridicuous manner.
quote:
And holiness is a trait which you have when you are near to God, not a trait of God. |
Both:
Exodus 3:5 "Do not come any closer," God said. "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground."
Leviticus 11:44 I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that moves about on the ground.
Leviticus 11:45 I am the LORD who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy.
Leviticus 19:2 "Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: `Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy.
You've read this so you should know.
quote:
The correct theory is the simplest one which fits all the facts. |
Seems reasonable.
quote:
Originally posted by Lars-E
Following ideas will do ziltz as far as salvation goes.
quote:
How does that relate to the idea of sola gracia? Are deeds of any use to get into Heaven? Does this vary from different forms of Christianity? |
Salvation isn't just an idea. It's a reality that you need to experience.
Romans 3:9 -
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all; for I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin,
10
as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
11
no one understands, no one seeks for God.
12
All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one."
13
"Their throat is an open grave, they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips."
14
"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
15
"Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16
in their paths are ruin and misery,
17
and the way of peace they do not know."
18
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19
Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
20
For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
21
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it,
22
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;
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since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24
they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,
25
whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins;
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it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.
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Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith.
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For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.
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Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
30
since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith.
31
Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
By having the Spirit on the inside God actually fulfills the law thru us. No man can live perfectly by the law. Only God can and thus we need Him to be our substitute.
Deeds will follow naturally from a saved person because God lives on the inside by the Spirit and works in us and thru us:
James 1:22-
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
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For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
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For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
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But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
2:14-
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
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If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
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And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
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Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
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Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
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Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
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But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
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Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
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Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
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And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
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Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
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Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
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For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Now to really grasp all this one needs God on the inside - the author. Jesus told Nicodemus that outsiders cannot see the Kingdom of God. They're blind to it. That's why many think christianity is foolishness. Cos they don't understand it or how it could be applicable to them. Also the part that God died can be a challenge for some.
I don't think that there's much dispute about the relationship between saving faith and works in Christendom. Luther though had a revelation on Romans 4 and 'saved only by grace' concept. This is good and sound theology, but he put so much emphasis on this that he wanted to root out the book of James from the bible. James talks about works.
Romans 4:1-
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
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For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
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For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
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Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
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But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
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Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
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Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
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Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
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Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
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How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
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And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
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And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
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For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
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For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
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Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
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Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
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(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
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Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
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And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
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He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
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And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
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And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
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Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25
Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Salvation comes thru faith. Only saved ppl go to heaven. Ppl who act on the following verses are saved:
Acts 4:10 -
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Hope this is helpful. Are the inversed texts (scriptures) difficult to read? I might need to cut down pasting verses from Bible Gateway.
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Guynemer
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Dammit Lars!
Well you brought it upon yourself. And now, Act II of "Hamlet", by William Shakespeare. (Abridged. Very abridged.)
Brevity is the soul of wit. --II, ii, 90.
To define true madness,
What is't but to be nothing but mad? --II, ii, 93.
More matter with less art. --II, ii, 95. (This quote is particularly applicable, since all this Bible nonsense has completely threadjacked a most interesting and literate thread about the scientific evidence of evolution.)
Though this be madness, yet there is method in't. --II, ii, 211.
There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. --II, ii, 259.
What a piece of work is a man! How noble in reason! How infinite in faculty! In form, in moving, how express and admirable! In action how like an angel! In apprehension, how like a god! And yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me. --II, ii, 323. (My personal favorite.)
I am but mad north-north-west; when the wind is southerly, I know a hawk from a handsaw. --II, ii, 405.
O, what a rogue and peasant slave am I. --II, ii, 584.
The play's the thing
Wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king. --II, ii, 641.
Care to push your luck? I'm just getting warmed up. Hell, no one has even been killed in the play yet; the good stuff is yet to come.
Back to evolution! (Please?)
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Lars-E
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quote:
It says in my translation: "bind them [these words] as a sign upon your hand and let them serve as a symbol of your forehead." If you treat the Bible as proof of creation, certainly this means what it says! |
It's dumb IMO to interpret that passage literally. What purpose would it possibly serve going around with cute little black boxes on you? Reminding ppl of the Word of God? Well, ok...still looks funny though.
Forehead and hand - think about that - what could it mean? For example: You use your head to think - think about the Word - meditate on it. Hand: Let your actions be colored by the Word. Don't let your hand lead you into sin.
An interpretation like I made makes sense. Looking ridiculous walking around with boxes on you and thinking it's God's will for some stupid perverted reason is IMO stupid and mocking God.
quote:
As for the holy stuff: the Lord is holy, but not in the same way. I was really talking more about righeousness. Holiness is intrinsic to being God. |
Whatever.
quote:
And God loves His people Israel, but he is quite ready to kill members of His people at a moment's notice. When Christions would call Him loving, quite often Jews would call Him merciful. |
I don't think God is that triggerhappy.
Christians call God both loving and merciful. There are many attributes to the eternal living God.
God loves his ppl. And who are they? God's ppl are the ppl who believe and have fellowship with Him. Like Abraham, David, Jabes, Gideon. Israel is a symbol of the redeemed church. God's ppl have always been believers. God has never had a ppl thet were not his friends, coworkers, saved believers. Thus Israel is not God's ppl, but the church is. Saying this the Gentiles are like wild branches that have been inserted to the Mother tree - Jesus Christ. The Jews belong there naturally. For a Jew to become Christian would be like coming home and he would really feel he belonged there. It would feel natural.
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Lars-E
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quote:
Originally posted by Goingonit
He made Abraham almost sacrifice his son. |
No.
God stopped Abraham. He never intended Abraham to kill Isaac. Anyways Abe believed that God would raise Isaac from the dead (Jesus-parallell):
Hebrews 11:11-
By faith Abraham, even though he was past age--and Sarah herself was barren--was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise.
12
And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
13
All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.
14
People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own.
15
If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return.
16
Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
17
By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son,
18
even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."
19
Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.
God had promised Abraham descendants thru Isaac. God would break his promise if he let Abe kill the boy. God also provided a real sacrifice - a ram that was stuck in some bushes nearby.
quote:
He wouldn't let Moses into Eretz Israel. |
Disobediance is very bad:
1 Samuel 15:22-
But Samuel replied, "What is more pleasing to the LORD: your burnt offerings and sacrifices or your obedience to his voice? Obedience is far better than sacrifice. Listening to him is much better than offering the fat of rams.
23
Rebellion is as bad as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as bad as worshiping idols. So because you have rejected the word of the LORD, he has rejected you from being king."
Moses didn't enter the promised land due to disobediance which again was provoked by the stubborness and disgruntling of the ppl of God:
Numbers 20:7 -
and the LORD said to Moses,
8
"Take the rod, and assemble the congregation, you and Aaron your brother, and tell the rock before their eyes to yield its water; so you shall bring water out of the rock for them; so you shall give drink to the congregation and their cattle."
9
And Moses took the rod from before the LORD, as he commanded him.
10
And Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock, and he said to them, "Hear now, you rebels; shall we bring forth water for you out of this rock?"
11
And Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock with his rod twice; and water came forth abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their cattle.
12
And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not believe in me, to sanctify me in the eyes of the people of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them."
13
These are the waters of Mer'ibah, where the people of Israel contended with the LORD, and he showed himself holy among them.
Psalm 106:33
for they made his spirit bitter, and he spoke words that were rash.
Deuteronomy 1:37
The LORD was angry with me also on your account, and said, 'You also shall not go in there;
quote:
He was pretty damn mean to Job, too. |
No, but the devil was.
Job feared accidents. Fear coses bad things to happen. Job was almost perfect, but the fear factor was a dint in his shining armor:
Job 1:1
There was a man named Job who lived in the land of Uz. He was blameless, a man of complete integrity. He feared God and stayed away from evil.
4
Every year when Job's sons had birthdays, they invited their brothers and sisters to join them for a celebration. On these occasions they would get together to eat and drink.
5
When these celebrations ended--and sometimes they lasted several days--Job would purify his children. He would get up early in the morning and offer a burnt offering for each of them. For Job said to himself, "Perhaps my children have sinned and have cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular practice.
quote:
This was Job's regular practice. |
Fear was an integral part of Job's character, unfortunately.
The devil was mean to Job:
6
One day the angels[1] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan the Accuser came with them.
7
"Where have you come from?" the LORD asked Satan.
And Satan answered the LORD, "I have been going back and forth across the earth, watching everything that's going on."
8
Then the LORD asked Satan, "Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth--a man of complete integrity. He fears God and will have nothing to do with evil."
9
Satan replied to the LORD, "Yes, Job fears God, but not without good reason!
10You have always protected him and his home and his property from harm. You have made him prosperous in everything he does. Look how rich he is!
11
But take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!"
12
"All right, you may test him," the LORD said to Satan. "Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don't harm him physically." So Satan left the LORD's presence.
After a while Satan harmed Job physically too:
Job 2:1-
One day the angels[1] came again to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan the Accuser came with them.
2
"Where have you come from?" the LORD asked Satan.
And Satan answered the LORD, "I have been going back and forth across the earth, watching everything that's going on."
3
Then the LORD asked Satan, "Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth--a man of complete integrity. He fears God and will have nothing to do with evil. And he has maintained his integrity, even though you persuaded me to harm him without cause."
4
Satan replied to the LORD, "Skin for skin--he blesses you only because you bless him. A man will give up everything he has to save his life.
5
But take away his health, and he will surely curse you to your face!"
6
"All right, do with him as you please," the LORD said to Satan. "But spare his life."
7
So Satan left the LORD's presence, and he struck Job with a terrible case of boils from head to foot.
Now many think God did all this when the scriptures in fact state that the devil was reponsible. Job's wife was one of those with a picture of God as angry and disease-inflicting. Even Job had the wrong idea!
Job2:8-
Then Job scraped his skin with a piece of broken pottery as he sat among the ashes.
9
His wife said to him, "Are you still trying to maintain your integrity? Curse God and die."
10
But Job replied, "You talk like a godless woman. Should we accept only good things from the hand of God and never anything bad?" So in all this, Job said nothing wrong.
quote:
For a Jew to become Christian would be like coming home and he would really feel he belonged there. It would feel natural.
This is why I am Jewish. I can't stand people who try to convert me. |
Crock. It's a christians duty to evangelize. Have you heard of the Great Comission?
Matt 28:18-
Jesus came and told his disciples, "I have been given complete authority in heaven and on earth.
19
Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. 20
Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Howewer I meant not to evangelize you. If you'd read the NT you'd know that the first section (my part) in your above quote is paraphrased from Romans 10:17:
But some of these branches from Abraham's tree, some of the Jews, have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, were grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in God's rich nourishment of his special olive tree.
This is from the bible so blame God not me. I was not trying to convert you. You're a bit sensitive. You might wanna read verse 17 in its context:
Romans 11:1-
I ask, then, has God rejected his people, the Jews? Of course not! Remember that I myself am a Jew, a descendant of Abraham and a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
2
No, God has not rejected his own people, whom he chose from the very beginning. Do you remember what the Scriptures say about this? Elijah the prophet complained to God about the people of Israel and said,
3
"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars. I alone am left, and now they are trying to kill me, too."[1]
4
And do you remember God's reply? He said, "You are not the only one left. I have seven thousand others who have never bowed down to Baal!"[2]
5
It is the same today, for not all the Jews have turned away from God. A few[3] are being saved as a result of God's kindness in choosing them.
6
And if they are saved by God's kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God's wonderful kindness would not be what it really is--free and undeserved.
7
So this is the situation: Most of the Jews have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the rest were made unresponsive.
8
As the Scriptures say,
"God has put them into a deep sleep.
To this very day he has shut their eyes so they do not see,
and closed their ears so they do not hear."[4]
9
David spoke of this same thing when he said,
"Let their bountiful table become a snare,
a trap that makes them think all is well.
Let their blessings cause them to stumble.
10
Let their eyes go blind so they cannot see,
and let their backs grow weaker and weaker."[5]
11
Did God's people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! His purpose was to make his salvation available to the Gentiles, and then the Jews would be jealous and want it for themselves.
12
Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the Jews turned down God's offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when the Jews finally accept it.
13
I am saying all of this especially for you Gentiles. God has appointed me as the apostle to the Gentiles. I lay great stress on this,
14
for I want to find a way to make the Jews want what you Gentiles have, and in that way I might save some of them.
15
For since the Jews' rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world, how much more wonderful their acceptance will be. It will be life for those who were dead!
16
And since Abraham and the other patriarchs were holy, their children will also be holy.[6] For if the roots of the tree are holy, the branches will be, too.
17
But some of these branches from Abraham's tree, some of the Jews, have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, were grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in God's rich nourishment of his special olive tree.
18
But you must be careful not to brag about being grafted in to replace the branches that were broken off. Remember, you are just a branch, not the root.
19
"Well," you may say, "those branches were broken off to make room for me."
20
Yes, but remember--those branches, the Jews, were broken off because they didn't believe God, and you are there because you do believe. Don't think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen.
21
For if God did not spare the branches he put there in the first place, he won't spare you either.
22
Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe to those who disobeyed, but kind to you as you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off.
23
And if the Jews turn from their unbelief, God will graft them back into the tree again. He has the power to do it.
24
For if God was willing to take you who were, by nature, branches from a wild olive tree and graft you into his own good tree--a very unusual thing to do--he will be far more eager to graft the Jews back into the tree where they belong.
25
I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters,[7] so that you will not feel proud and start bragging. Some of the Jews have hard hearts, but this will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to Christ.
26
And so all Israel will be saved. Do you remember what the prophets said about this?
"A Deliverer will come from Jerusalem,[8]
and he will turn Israel[9] from all ungodliness.
27
And then I will keep my covenant with them
and take away their sins."[10]
28
Many of the Jews are now enemies of the Good News. But this has been to your benefit, for God has given his gifts to you Gentiles. Yet the Jews are still his chosen people because of his promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
29
For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.
30
Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the Jews refused his mercy, God was merciful to you instead.
31
And now, in the same way, the Jews are the rebels, and God's mercy has come to you. But someday they,[11] too, will share in God's mercy.
32
For God has imprisoned all people in their own disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
33
Oh, what a wonderful God we have! How great are his riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his methods!
34
For who can know what the Lord is thinking? Who knows enough to be his counselor?[12]
35
And who could ever give him so much that he would have to pay it back?
36
For everything comes from him; everything exists by his power and is intended for his glory. To him be glory evermore. Amen.
[1] 1:3 1 Kgs 19:10, 14.
[2] 11:4 1 Kgs 19:18.
[3] 11:5 Greek A remnant.
[4] 11:8 Deut 29:4; Isa 29:10.
[5] 11:9-10 Ps 69:22-23.
[6] 11:16 Greek If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump.
[7] 11:25 Greek brothers.
[8] 11:26a Greek from Zion.
[9] 11:26b Greek Jacob.
[10] 11:26-27 Isa 59:20-21.
[11] 11:31 Some manuscripts read But now they; other
manuscripts read But they.
[12] 11:34 See Isa 40:13.
quote:
Jews don't try to convert anyone. |
Well that's partly how Israel lost the blessing of God. You wanted to keep all the blessings and the covenant to yourself. And not give which is a fundamental attribute to God:
He gave his only Son remember.
Give and you shall receive. The Golden rule. See the last bold verse. The ones inbetween are related.
Matthew 5:42 Matthew 5 Matthew 5:41-43 Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you.
Matthew 6:12 Matthew 6 Matthew 6:11-13 And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors;
Matthew 7:7 Matthew 7 Matthew 7:6-8 "Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Matthew 7:9 Matthew 7 Matthew 7:8-10 Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?
Matthew 7:10 Matthew 7 Matthew 7:9-11 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?
Matthew 7:11 Matthew 7 Matthew 7:10-12 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
Matthew 9:6 Matthew 9 Matthew 9:5-7 But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" --he then said to the paralytic--"Rise, take up your bed and go home."
Matthew 9:8 Matthew 9 Matthew 9:7-9 When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.
Matthew 10:8 Matthew 10 Matthew 10:7-9 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying, give without pay.
Matthew 10:42 Matthew 10 Matthew 10:41-43 And whoever gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water because he is a disciple, truly, I say to you, he shall not lose his reward."
Matthew 13:11 Matthew 13 Matthew 13:10-12 And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
Matthew 16:19 Matthew 16 Matthew 16:18-20 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Matthew 20:28 Matthew 20 Matthew 20:27-29 even as the Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Matthew 21:43 Matthew 21 Matthew 21:42-44 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it."
Matthew 24:45 Matthew 24 Matthew 24:44-46 "Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time?
Matthew 25:29 Matthew 25 Matthew 25:28-30 For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Matthew 25:37 Matthew 25 Matthew 25:36-38 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
Matthew 28:18 Matthew 28 Matthew 28:17-19 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mark 8:37 Mark 8 Mark 8:36-38 For what can a man give in return for his life?
Matthew 10:40 Matthew 10 Matthew 10:39-41 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives him who sent me.
Mark 6:11 Mark 6 Mark 6:10-12 And if any place will not receive you and they refuse to hear you, when you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet for a testimony against them."
Mark 10:15 Mark 10 Mark 10:14-16 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it."
Luke 10
9
heal the sick in it and say to them, 'The kingdom of God has come near to you.'
10
But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say,
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'Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.'
Luke 18
29
And he said to them, "Truly, I say to you, there is no man who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
30
who will not receive manifold more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life."
31
And taking the twelve, he said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written of the Son of man by the prophets will be accomplished.
Mark 4:24 Mark 4 Mark 4:23-25 And he said to them, "Take heed what you hear; the measure you give will be the measure you get, and still more will be given you.
As I've said I haven't tried to convert you. I'm only answering your questions.
BTW, if you're so angry/afraid of God and think He's out to get ya, why do you insist on believing / calling yourself Jewish in the religious sense?
And you might wanna get a bible instead of using me as one.
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Lars-E
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What does that mean Macbone?
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Guynemer
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Hamlet, Act III.
To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing, end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and, by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause. --III, i, 56.
The dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we know not?
Thus conscience makes cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought. --III, i, 78.
Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remembered. --III, i, 89.
Get thee to a nunnery. --III, i, 124.
Be thous as chaste as ice, as pure as snow, thou shalt not escape calumny. --III, i, 142.
O! woe is me,
To have seen what I have seen, see what I see! --III, i, 169.
Suit the action to the word, the word to the action. --III, ii, 20.
Give me that man
That is not passion's slave, and I will wear him
In my heart's core, ay, in my heart of heart,
As I do thee. --III, ii, 76.
The lady doth protest too much, methinks. --III, ii, 242.
What! frighted with false fire? --III, ii, 282.
For some must watch, while some must sleep:
So runs the world away. --III, ii, 289.
'Tis now the very witching time of night. --III, ii, 413.
O! my offense is rank, it smells to heaven. --III, iii, 36.
My words fly up, my thoughts remain below:
Words without thoughts never to heaven go. --III, iii, 97.
How now! a rat? Dead, for a ducat, dead! --III, iv, 23. (Our first death! Yippie! Only... hmm... carry the one... seven more to go. Hmmm... I think I'm missing one.)
Thou wretched, rash, intruding fool, farewell!
I took thee for thy better. --III, iv, 31.
Assume a virtue, if you have it not. --III, iv, 160.
I must be cruel only to be kind. --III, iv, 178.
For 'tis the sport to have the enginer
Hoist with his own petar. --III, iv, 206.
I'll lug the guts into the neighbor room. --III, iv, 212.
And I'll be lugging guts all over the place if you force me to continue, Lars.
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Lars-E
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My last post was long yes. I got a pop-up that said "You have 20187 characters. You need to cut down to 20.000". So I deleted 2-3 verses.
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Lincoln
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quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
Aha, the Curse of Apolyton again. Nobody leaves!
Here we go again...
Neither abiogenesis nor evolution contradict any "known facts or laws".
As for "information": haven't we been through this enough times already? Abiogenesis requires a self-replicator small enough to form randomly: like your windswept letters spelling out "RNA". The rest is chemistry, nobody needs to "translate" it. In your analogy, let's assume that the letters have lots of little magnets in them. These tend to attract nearby letters, pulling them into a specific arrangement where they stick together. Then this arrangement can separate (because the links between letters in a word are stronger than between words). So maybe "ABC" generates "FJW" from surrounding letters, and "FJW" generates "YSQ" or whatever. "RNA" is a combination which generates "RNA". That's the only thing that makes it interesting: it is self-replicating.
The genomes of modern organisms ARE too complex to arise by chance. But evolution (even though it incorporates randomness in mutations) isn't chance, it's very selective.
Maybe you should turn this around. Evolution is the only process we know of that can produce intelligence. By your own argument, an intelligent deity is an "outlandish theory" which doesn't "bow to the known facts and laws".
How could God evolve? If he didn't evolve, how can he be intelligent? |
It didn't take very long for this thread to turn into a theological discussion. I should take the time to answer Jack's post though if I am not interrupting anything.
You really should read the book Jack (or even this thread). The
"magnetic attractions" have already been discussed here and thee is no dispute over that issue. And saying "evolution did it" is not really answering the question. First you must prove that abiogenesis did it according to existing and established law. Appealing to "evolution" proves nothing except a reliance on circular reasoning i.e. "evoluton did it because I know it can do it because I believe it can do anything..."
Also "self replication" is not the issue either. There is no question that existing information can be duplicated. You can see that at your local Xerox machine. So what is the relevance of your post?
"nobody needs to "translate" it." Right except we are obviously not talking about someone but something. The DNA code is translated and the communication that takes place in the cell and organism is constantly interpreted, translated and used accoding to feedback information. It is trnslated. That is basic biology.
"maybe "ABC" generates "FJW" from surrounding letters, and "FJW" generates "YSQ" or whatever. "RNA" is a combination which generates "RNA". That's the only thing that makes it interesting: it is self-replicating."
So what exactly do you do with "ABC" etc. now? You for some reason asume that a living organism is just a pile of random proteins that float around looking for a function. And making ABC into more ABC's has nothing to do with the information problem which you ignored for some reason. Also you are assuming that a cell is not a biological machine but just random chemical reactions.
Finally, you assume the existance of information is a result of evolution before "evolution" even existed! You assume a biological process existed to make information (that is itself dependant on information) to produce the communicative instructions necessary for biology to even begin.
You need a better solution than "evolution did it".
"By your own argument, an intelligent deity is an "outlandish theory" which doesn't "bow to the known facts and laws"."
No, it is not outlandish to assume a mental source is necessary to produce true communication and information. That is merely The present reality which you prove with each of your posts here. The only mystery that is inovlved is the exact nature of that mental source because it must have existed before life as we know it existed.
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ZoboZeWarrior
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of anonym losers ... :[
Mar 2001
time: 06:17
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Darwin established is theory of evolution in the middle of the XIX centzury. Micro-biology was at its beginnings.
He ignored lot of things about of biologique informations were reproduced or transformed.
At this time there where two scientific mouvements. People who believed that biological information where continue data (the theory of backet of paint) and people who believed the biological where of sequential and 'discret' nature (the theory of beans bag).
Darwin was supporting the first theory (now the genetical aspect of the cell prove that the seconf theory was right). Considering the theory the backet of paint the evolution could be only continue.
But continue evolution can explain the micro-evolution : the evolution of into species. But cannot easly explain the evolution through species : the macro-evolution. In this case the genitical evolution is too important to be continue.
So I think that Darwin was not 100% right. As the gravitional theory of Newton. But this theory is a valuable base to understand the real mechanism who make living form to evolve and to establish new theories.
What I mean in conclusion : Science evolved and can learn from its errors. Theology don't : Christians, jews and muslim are still now fighting to prove their are right.
Prostetant and catholics are still fighting.
Theology have no way to prove the true. Science has.
Last edited by ZoboZeWarrior on 13-02-2002 at 15:42
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ZoboZeWarrior
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of anonym losers ... :[
Mar 2001
time: 06:17
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-Sorry double post -
Last edited by ZoboZeWarrior on 13-02-2002 at 15:44
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Jack the Bodiless
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Converted underground reservoir tank.
Jan 1970
time: 05:17
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quote:
You really should read the book Jack (or even this thread). The
"magnetic attractions" have already been discussed here and thee is no dispute over that issue. And saying "evolution did it" is not really answering the question. First you must prove that abiogenesis did it according to existing and established law. Appealing to "evolution" proves nothing except a reliance on circular reasoning i.e. "evoluton did it because I know it can do it because I believe it can do anything..." |
Let's be careful not to confuse evolution and abiogenesis here. I'm saying "evolution did it" as an answer to the question of where the information in modern complex life forms came from. Not because "I know it can do it because I believe it can do anything...", but because I know that it CAN and DOES generate new information. Not only is the mechanism well understood, it has also been directly observed.
quote:
Also "self replication" is not the issue either. There is no question that existing information can be duplicated. You can see that at your local Xerox machine. So what is the relevance of your post? |
As I said earlier, naturalistic abiogeneis is the theory that the first self-replicator was simple enough to form by random chance alone.
quote:
"nobody needs to "translate" it." Right except we are obviously not talking about someone but something. The DNA code is translated and the communication that takes place in the cell and organism is constantly interpreted, translated and used accoding to feedback information. It is trnslated. That is basic biology. |
For modern organisms. Polynucleotides such as RNA are known to be capable of forming other polynucleotides from free-floating nucleotides and proteins from free-floating amino acids without this extra "machinery". As this "machinery" is itself composed of proteins, the theory is that polynucleotides which were able (by chance) to produce the right proteins to assist reproduction prevailed over those which could not.
quote:
So what exactly do you do with "ABC" etc. now? You for some reason asume that a living organism is just a pile of random proteins that float around looking for a function. And making ABC into more ABC's has nothing to do with the information problem which you ignored for some reason. Also you are assuming that a cell is not a biological machine but just random chemical reactions. |
We're not talking about cells at this stage. This life is indeed "a pile of random proteins that float around looking for a function". Cells come later, as a refinement of the "machinery": a protein envelope that stops useful proteins from drifting away.
quote:
Finally, you assume the existance of information is a result of evolution before "evolution" even existed! You assume a biological process existed to make information (that is itself dependant on information) to produce the communicative instructions necessary for biology to even begin. |
Nope. Random chance first, then evolution. Evolution would kick in immediately when the first self-replicator appears, and would then create all of the information that was not initially present.
quote:
By your own argument, an intelligent deity is an "outlandish theory" which doesn't "bow to the known facts and laws"."
No, it is not outlandish to assume a mental source is necessary to produce true communication and information. That is merely The present reality which you prove with each of your posts here. The only mystery that is inovlved is the exact nature of that mental source because it must have existed before life as we know it existed. |
Given that the only sort of "mental source" we know of is a physical brain shaped by several billion years of evolution, that's a pretty outlandish theory you have there. And what is "true communication and information"? When one tree topples and damages another, they have "truly communicated". When pebbles on a beach get graded in size order by wave action, the pattern contains "information" readily discernible by future geologists.
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Lars-E
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quote:
Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior
What I mean in conclusion : Science evolved and can learn from its errors. Theology don't : Christians, jews and muslim are still now fighting to prove their are right.
Prostetant and catholics are still fighting. |
Theology is by definition without errors.
The fighting religious factions of N-Ireland are nominal christians.
We know very little about science and we discover we are wrong all the time thus it seriously needs to develop or 'evolve' as you name it.
quote:
Theology have no way to prove the true. Science has. |
Theology doesn't aim to prove scientific truth. Scientific evidence does, but has not come very far with the evolution theory as it has not been proven. So either the evidence is hard to dig out and/or the theory is lacking.
I suggest you stick to evolution theory only. This thread is already 'unclean' due to mixing with other subjects. It would be good at least to discuss these issues separately.
Last edited by Lars-E on 14-02-2002 at 08:45
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Lincoln
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Hello again Jack,
"I'm saying "evolution did it" as an answer to the question of where the information in modern complex life forms came from. Not because "I know it can do it because I believe it can do anything...", but because I know that it CAN and DOES generate new information. Not only is the mechanism well understood, it has also been directly observed."
You said that the bonds are weaker between the "words" as the genetic code arose somehow. Please explain how AGC,TGA,CTA,GT etc. is seperated into "words" or a specific 3 letter code using the laws of theromodynamics or chemical laws. What natural law causes the CT bond to be less in the first case (after the first AGC) than it is in the third 3 letter code (CTA).
Your statement that asserts that evolution can do it later is irrelevant because we are talking about the origin of information and the code, translation etc. In any case natural selection can of course do it when the popouation is in existance. But in any eary life scenario only mutations are available to do it. Even Richard Dawkins admits that mutations cannot do what you assert they do.
"As I said earlier, naturalistic abiogeneis is the theory that the first self-replicator was simple enough to form by random chance alone."
That theory however is absurd and is based upon the false notion that information and the specific instructions, vehicle for translation, order of asembly of the various machinery,
etc. arises spontaneously according to natural laws. You need to demonstrate how this can happen to be taken seriously. You suggested the words are divided somehow and you also said that there was no translation necessary. Of course a simple 3 letter code answers none of these questions, and it is entirely uselss if not translated into the actual work of making proteins which are likewise useless unless they are specific proteins that are constructed according to a specific order of 20 amino acids.
"For modern organisms..."
No comment is necessary because that is irrelevant to abiogenesis and the origin of information and the construction of a complex machine which are the essential ingredients of even the most basic life.
"Random chance first, then evolution. Evolution would kick in immediately when the first self-replicator appears, and would then create all of the information that was not initially present."
Well then answer the random chance questions. And then you can explain how theoretical early life mutations (which are mistakes) can refine this already delicate information with no help from sexual recombination, or any other factors which are available now.
"Given that the only sort of "mental source" we know of is a physical brain shaped by several billion years of evolution, that's a pretty outlandish theory you have there. And what is "true communication and information"? When one tree topples and damages another, they have "truly communicated". When pebbles on a beach get graded in size order by wave action, the pattern contains "information" readily discernible by future geologists."
When you say "shaped by millions of years of evolution" you realize that you are arguing in a circle? And the tree topling and the grading of pebbles is completely irrelevant to the subject of communicative information. Please explain how geologists interpreting the history of natural grading is analogous to the intelligent order that exists in DNA.
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Lincoln
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Goingonit,
"if a photocopier spontaneously copied itself to produce two working copiers it would be life."
It would also be a miracle. I didn't think you guys believed in miracles.
Replication is only a small part of life. The true miracle of life is how we, as intelligent beings, came into existance regardless of the method used. As Voltaire said, "there must be some difference between the ideas of Newton and the dung of a mule."
I don't claim to know all of the answers but I do think the case can be fairly drawn that both sides of this discussion believe in miracles. I am just trying to make the atheist face up to that fact. I already concede that I believe in miracles. Why are atheists so reluctant to admit the same?
One posterhere said along with Richard Dawkins that it is entirely possible that a marble statue can wave at us as we pass by. I think a better analogy is that some believe that the marble statue can wave at us and then walk into town and sit down and order a drink!
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12-02-2002 02:04
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