08-02-2002 11:52									#1
	The Blind Atheist Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The Blind Atheist

Yes folks. It truely takes a miracle for an atheist to believe that there was no intelligent mental source necessary for the beginning of life.

I wish I could take full part in this discussion but I don't have the oportunity here in Thailand. The relevant portion of the book can be easily found in chapter 4 (Snowflakes and DNA) but I really think that if you are an atheist you should read the whole thing. Only one who believes in miracles could deny the evidence that is plain for all to see -- unless they are blind.

	08-02-2002 11:55									#2
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Frankly I don't care.

Tell us about Thailand!!

	08-02-2002 11:56									#3
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Welcome back, Lincoln.

	08-02-2002 12:01									#4
	Thailand Increase the size of your Attachments

Well its very nice here. I am thinking about maybe moving here someday. If you decide to come here e-mail me at rfhendrix@yahoo.com and I will meet you at the airport.

The hot season begins in about 2 or three weeks but right now it is real nice in northern Thailand. I like the simplicity here. The people just seem so pleasant. Of course some just want your money but that is to be expected anywhere.

They call this the land of smiles. People are constantly brightening my day with a simple smile.

	08-02-2002 12:04									#5
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Hello buddy,

Too bad I have to sign off in a minute. The old debates were kind of fun. Maybe I will check in tomorrow.

	08-02-2002 12:06									#6
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Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about moving back to China, since my brief stint there. It's very tempting.

	08-02-2002 12:06									#7
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Thailand sounds cool

I had a freind from there in highschool, but we drifted appart when she chose a different path then I

Jon Miller

	08-02-2002 12:08									#8
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Lincoln

you arrived back just in time for another EVC going christian

maybe this time he will stay so for longer

Jon Miller

	08-02-2002 15:27									#9
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Is that your website, Lincoln?

I'd say again, the Devil is in the details. For example, oil doesn't mix with water because one's polar and the other one's non-polar. There's no law of nature that says oil doesn't mix well with water, just polar goes well with polar, and non-polar with non-polar.

	08-02-2002 16:25									#10
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I hope this thread isn't another Creationist vs Evolutionist thread.

Nature works randomnly. It's a proven fact. Theories explain why, facts confirm them. Science prove that life is a natural aspect of universe. But doesn't mean that there is no gods or no God.

If your faith is affraid to and refuse to understand how the world works instead to be marveled by the power and the intelligence of the entity or the entities who created the universe and its rules. So your faith don't worth a thing.

	08-02-2002 16:34									#11
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Welcome back Lincoln. Your theories are total bunkum, but welcome back anyway

	08-02-2002 16:36									#12
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Woah, you're the author. I will have a read through it later as I don't have time now, I am expecting Mr Higgs at some point soon so I will have to wait until I return from Reading.

	08-02-2002 16:58									#13
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quote: Asking foolish questions about the beginning of God leads to the same place as similar scientific questions lead.

But you said similar scienfic questions lead to absurdum...

	08-02-2002 19:36									#14
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quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior I hope this thread isn't another Creationist vs Evolutionist thread. Nature works randomnly. It's a proven fact. Theories explain why, facts confirm them. Science prove that life is a natural aspect of universe. But doesn't mean that there is no gods or no God. If your faith is affraid to and refuse to understand how the world works instead to be marveled by the power and the intelligence of the entity or the entities who created the universe and its rules. So your faith don't worth a thing.

Actually, it's a "Lincoln Returns" thread disguised as another "Creationist vs. Evolutionist" thread.

Hi, Lincoln!

	08-02-2002 19:43									#15
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Hi Lincoln!

	08-02-2002 20:18									#16
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Hi Lincoln!

You even get your audience wrong. Your target should be evilutionists, which incidentally include lots of your fellow Christians.

	08-02-2002 22:50									#17
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Hi Lincoln!

	08-02-2002 23:52									#18
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Welcome back, Lincoln.

So how do Thai women compare to Western women?

	09-02-2002 00:15									#19
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Hi Lincoln. Good to see you around again.

	09-02-2002 01:59									#20
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Creationists. Bah, always the same arguments, never any proof...
I've just read the first few chapters of your text:

Just because you don't understand it yet, doesn't mean it needed an external force to drive it.

Retrotransposons, LINEs etc are generally thought to be the remainders of old retroviral infections. Just look at any retrovirus and you'll see LTRs. And yes they do act as agents of mutation, and regulation. That doesn't mean they were stuck there on purpose. It just means that chance dictates that some insertion events will have a positive effect. This also means that all individuals where it was integrated in a less opportune place will have died, and failed to pass on their genes.

If you look for design, you can find it. However, the simpler solution is taking into account the time and number of generations that have passed before that what you see now is available. You have read Dawkins, so you know the example of the photosensitive patch that goes on to become an eye, gaining advantage after advantage.

Large-scale mutations also happen, generally after mutation of homeobox genes (for example we can mutate flies so that they have legs on their head instead of antennea). These are nearly always extremely detrimental, though at some point (maybe a one in a trillion chance) something good will come of it. If this gives a selective advantage it will remain in the population.

There's no God, no creator being. There's just chance and a hell of a lot of time. You say that the statue can't wave, however if you had a billion statues and watched them over billion years one of the hands will wave. I know believing in evolution isn't pretty, in that all the failures fall by the roadside, but it is far less delusional than believing in a creator.

I'll keep it at that for now, but bring me more arguments and I'll crush 'em.

	09-02-2002 02:15									#21
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I read skimmed a few chapters I realized that this was closely related to the book by Michael Behe called Darwin's Black Box . The trouble with hs arguments and your is that just because we don't understand it does not mean that it may not have happened. Behe also pissed me off by constantly disregarding mathematical models on the chances of evolution by saying that mathematical models don't actually state how it evolved (because we don't know).

	09-02-2002 03:33									#22
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Hi Lincoln!

	09-02-2002 10:46									#23
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Well hello everyone! Glad to see some old familiar faces and some new one too.

For a starter the objections posted so far prove one thing for certain: You haven't read the book yet. I am certainly not reiterating Behe's arguments. And I am not making a case against evolution either although I do mention it as an incidental distraction because atheists invariably seem to rely on it. This connection will cut me off in a minute so that is all for today.

God bless you all (even the atheists)!

	09-02-2002 10:50									#24
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For those short of time try the chapter on intelligent intervention (I think it is ch 5) and I will get bact to you when I can. . .

	09-02-2002 10:53									#25
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The website is bunk. It relies on morality to contradict reason. Hmm, sounds to me like religion!

Religion has many positive aspects, but that doesn't mean that it's a good source for truth.

	09-02-2002 10:53									#26
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Hi, Lincoln.

	09-02-2002 11:00									#27
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Hi DinoDoc buddy. Thanks for your comments Goingonit. I don't think you have read the book either. Because the morality issue is also just an incidental point I made along the way. Get back to me when you have read more of it. Read the objections section for somewhat of a summary and also the Conclusion. I really have to go now. I can't believe this connection lasted for more than 5 minutes.

	09-02-2002 11:04									#28
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How do you like teaching anyway? Is it just like you thought that it would be?

	09-02-2002 11:11									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Hi DinoDoc buddy. Thanks for your comments Goingonit. I don't think you have read the book either. Because the morality issue is also just an incidental point I made along the way. Get back to me when you have read more of it. Read the objections section for somewhat of a summary and also the Conclusion. I really have to go now. I can't believe this connection lasted for more than 5 minutes.

While I will make no claim that the evidence is invalid, the site is (quite obviously) working from the postulate that God did create life. Thus, anything that does not absolutely contradict that hypothesis is taken to de facto support it. The basic thesis is, "Intelligent design was necessary because we do not know how life would have happened otherwise." This is in violation of Occam's Razor: some supreme being tinkering with Hydrocabon molecules to create life is not what one would automatically assume if one didn't know how life started. The arguments made in the conclusion are also tautological in nature:

quote: It didn’t work you say? Oh, too bad. You have just helped to prove that God must exist. Oh, you did create life? Sorry for the misunderstanding. You have just helped to prove that intelligent intervention is necessary for the creation of life. Why? Well you are the one who translated the information into an appropriate code aren’t you? Wasn’t it you who subjected the strand of the now intelligently coded DNA to experiments that you devised?

However, that doesn't mean that creationists are wrong; it just means that the argument is undefendable by logic alone and is thus metaphysical in nature, and impossible to argue based on science.

	09-02-2002 13:36									#30
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Goingonit,

You are correct that the site does precede from the conclusion that God must exist but that is only after it is shown by evidence that he must exist. Then I build upon that evidence. The evidence that he must exist is found in the communicative instructions that are found in DNA and also in the intricate machinery of even an early biological organism. This was not Behe's argument although his assertions certainly add to the evidence. He was assuming that evolution was already working. I am concentrating on the beginning itself.

information laws require a mental source in order to provide true communication and not just abstract "information" that some like to define to avoid the issue. There is true communication within the machinery of life. It is absurd to conclude that life is an exception to established information law. An intelligent mental source must exist unless it is proved that the information laws are not in effect.

DinoDoc,

I really don't like teaching English because it is really too irrelevant (Moduls, helping verbs, etc. etc.) but I do like interacting with the Thai people. It can be quite fun.