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gopher
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I eat my own poop
Dec 1999
time: 00:17
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I ask because I had a lengthly conversation about this a little bit ago. As a half hispanic, half white person, I find myself really identifying as a Hispanic, even though my skin is white and I was raised without much Hispanic influences. Now, I wonder why that is. I have noticed that other cultures/races are very culturally identified. Take African Americans, for example. There is an identity of "us", of heroes to the culture, the MLK's, the Malcom X's, the Fredrick Douglases. A lot of other cultures have that as well. Hispanics have their La Raza, the Cesar Chavezes, the Salvador Allendes. There is an identity for those cultures, one that white/europeans lack. What I find is that white culture likes to organize in deeper roots, not cultural but in economic, political, and religious identity more than the other cultures out there.
Any thoughts?
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:17
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We whites have America as our cultural identity. We are the real Americans, not hyphenated Americans. We have our heroes, our history, our culture, but instead of binding it up in a small group, we attatch it to our nation (or our region, if we're Southerners).
Furthermore, you only notice the culture in proximaty to other cultures. Since we do our best to ignore other cultures, it's hard to notice what about us makes us different from them (except that they're dirty, smelly, and need our help all the time). However, when confronted by foreign cultures in their own land, we suddenly realize what is American about us, what makes us different.
It's hard to do that in the United States, since Canada and the US have very similar cultures. There is probably no comparablly sized area on Earth with such a dearth of cultures.
Also remember that many whites do not consider Black and Hispanic cultures/histories/etc. to be legitimate culutres in this country. The very fact that there were "multiculturalism wars" demonstrates this. Why should whites have been so resistent to the notion that there are other histories involved in America . . . unless it was confronting, challenging already held ntions about who were were as a people.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:17
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He was speaking in regards to America, but the same idea could be transported across the Atlantic. You're not white, you're British or French or German. Especially true in those countries, because you nationality is defined around historical lineage. An African or Black Carribean living in Britain can never really claim to be English or Scottish or even British. Her ancestry is from someplace else.
In America, since we are all from someplace else (with the oft ignored excetion of the Indians) so nationality isn't the same. Still, historically, only whites were considered to be Americans. Our history is still largely only concerned with white chievements. Black history is relegated to two parts of American history, the argument over slavery and the Civil Rights movement. Hispanics don't have a history in the US. Asians manage slightly better than that, with building the railroad and being sent to concetration camps in WWII. Indians only exist as someone to be fought or victimized by the US. In each case, whatever any of these groups did outside of their interaction with whites is ignored. More susinctly, the only relavence anyone from these groups has historically is in their interaction with whites. None of these groups exists in isolation from whites or has any history of importance that does not involve us.
Hence the need for Black history, and Hispanic history, and Asian-American history, and Indian studies, etc. That was just a starting point. The real task is to integrate them into the story of America, and abolish the need for seperate studies.
Last edited by chegitz guevara on 10-02-2002 at 02:14
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:17
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And what exactly is white? Do you include the dirty Italians ? Those damn Pollacks? Those Drunken Irish? The sub-human Slavs? The Jews!!? White is a label created to divide Europeans from everybody else, and it is a totally false identity, since 'white' groups have different histories, languages, from each other.
That's why there are Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans, Polish-Americans, and all these other European hyphens out there, or why there is a German-American parade in NYC just for Germans, not all 'whites'.
As for 'hispanic', that is also crap. Which hispanic do you feel like gopher? Mexican, Argentine, Chilean, Brazilian, Cuban, Puerto Rican, Peruvian, Guatemalan, Costa Rican, Panamanian, Honduran, nicaraguan?, so forth and so on. Back in Latin America, 'hispanic' exsist only as a way to separate out gringos and eurotrash, but most 'hispanics' hate each other as much as anyone else. Go to a Mexican neighborhood acting Puerto Rican and see how long you last.
Lesson of the day- the bigger the identity label, the more it is a work of politics and history, not real connections or feelings.
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Bereta_Eder
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
And what exactly is white? Do you include the dirty Italians ? Those damn Pollacks? Those Drunken Irish? The sub-human Slavs? The Jews!!? White is a label created to divide Europeans from everybody else, and it is a totally false identity, since 'white' groups have different histories, languages, from each other. |
I agree the "white" identity is a made up, a hoax. never existed. I wonder who thought it up and why?
could it be the americans so they could differantiate themselves from the blacks without dividing themselves?
or was it the english to differantaite themsleves from the colonials?
who ever it was it did one hell of a service to modern racist ideology and it still goes on in those countries that had something to do with manufacturing that "white" identity.
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orange
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It doesn't matter what your name is!
Feb 2000
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by faded glory
well orange damn you, your right. again  |
Well, I'm not exactly sure your feelings on the subject, but let me make one thing absolutely clear...
I do not have any problem with the celebration of cultural history, in fact, i rather enjoy studying it! I just think that it's a shame for one type of pride to be considered a positive thing, and another type of pride considered racist.
I personally find it pointless to have pride in one's color or race, as that is not something one can chose for himself. For example, I'm not 'proud' to be white, I'm not proud to be Irish German and English, nor am I proud to be male. I don't think it makes sense to have pride in such things, but again, those are my own views and if someone is proud of any factor about them, I'm not going to think less of them or more of them. Sort of like religion, I don't have one, but if you have one it doesn't change my opinion of you in the slightest (so long as you're not spouting fanaticism and making completely illogical statements  ) All I want in return is the same respect given to me, the respect to make my own choices 
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gopher
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I eat my own poop
Dec 1999
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
And what exactly is white? Do you include the dirty Italians ? Those damn Pollacks? Those Drunken Irish? The sub-human Slavs? The Jews!!? White is a label created to divide Europeans from everybody else, and it is a totally false identity, since 'white' groups have different histories, languages, from each other.
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True, but those are more Nationalist identities, save for Judiasm, which is religious. In my experiance, for instance, African Americans are very culturally identified, no matter if their ansectry is from the first slave ship to New Amsterdam to first generation from Africa/Carribiean/Etc.
I agree that white is a label. However, like it or not, that label is a large part of our identity. Now, I ask why is it that many people I talk to do not feel cultury identified as whites, whereas my hispanic and black friends (even some asians) identify themselfs as "African Americans" or "Hispanics", whereas my white friends and myself look twords other labels. I think that some people here have hit it on the head by saying that since white is the "norm" or "The Man" in this country, we don't tend to generalize with the norm. We crave uniqueness.
quote:
As for 'hispanic', that is also crap. Which hispanic do you feel like gopher? Mexican, Argentine, Chilean, Brazilian, Cuban, Puerto Rican, Peruvian, Guatemalan, Costa Rican, Panamanian, Honduran, nicaraguan?, so forth and so on. Back in Latin America, 'hispanic' exsist only as a way to separate out gringos and eurotrash, but most 'hispanics' hate each other as much as anyone else. Go to a Mexican neighborhood acting Puerto Rican and see how long you last.
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Ah, good pont. However, we are looking from an American perspective. In S.A, an Argentinian (which I am 50%) thinks of themselfs a world apart from a Chilean. Here, however, in every case I have seen, from College to my entire family which immigrated here, those differences become mute. A sort of communial identity of Hispanic surfaces, thats why it's not just Mexicans that celebrate Cesar Chavez day, or why all my La Raza clubs and other Hispanic activities range from Puerto Rico to Cuba to Paraguay. Same for many Asian groups, and definatly for African Americans.
Go into that Mexican neighborhood as a Hispanic, then go in as a black or white person, i bet you are treated better as a hispanic.
quote:
Lesson of the day- the bigger the identity label, the more it is a work of politics and history, not real connections or feelings. |
Amen, but we can't just ignore what is real life. People label eachother. Get over it. The more we reconize and question those feelings and labels, the better we are to deal with them in the future, and perhaps eventually not label people in real life, but thats messing with human nature 
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:17
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How many identities does a person have?
There is family, neighborhood, town, county, state or province, state, nationality (there is a difference between state and nationality, USA is a state, German a nationality- sometimes they are the same, but not always), politics, class, religion, sexual orientation (for those who care), hobbies (like Apolyton), an perhaps even more. How one labels themselves depends on which they view as the most important. Yes, many African Americans join clubs in their schools, but not all, those that don't because they don't place it as their key identity. Most folk see themselves as part of agroup to differentiate from the other- most whites see whites as the majority (in some places, not true anymore) so that way of classification is not important- then nationality becomes key, like Irish or Italian. Groups that have historically felt as outsider, usually becuase they were treated as such, like minorities, more easily identify themselves as being on the out, so they congragate in the identities that matter. My university has a Korean students association because Koreans see themselves as a minority and hang together for confort. Back in Korea, they might not even talk to each other.
Perhaps one of the most interesting questions in our lives, and in politics too, is which of these labels that make us, are we willing to die for. Even more impostant is which of these labels are we willing to kill for.
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Evan von Christoph
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white identity was almost destroyed by the civil rites movement and micegenation, which was all part of an evil plot by the race that killed Christ, praise to him.
I'm glad I belong to an Aryan church!
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orange
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It doesn't matter what your name is!
Feb 2000
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by gopher
Ah, good pont. However, we are looking from an American perspective. In S.A, an Argentinian (which I am 50%) thinks of themselfs a world apart from a Chilean. Here, however, in every case I have seen, from College to my entire family which immigrated here, those differences become mute. A sort of communial identity of Hispanic surfaces, thats why it's not just Mexicans that celebrate Cesar Chavez day, or why all my La Raza clubs and other Hispanic activities range from Puerto Rico to Cuba to Paraguay. Same for many Asian groups, and definatly for African Americans.
Go into that Mexican neighborhood as a Hispanic, then go in as a black or white person, i bet you are treated better as a hispanic. |
I think this applies in many ways, not just America.
If I were to move to, say, Madagascar...and I met someone who was originally from Texas, one from Washington state, one from Maine, one from North Dakota, and one from Florida I would identify with them much more easily than I would if I met them in my home state of Pennsylvania, because of a common language, (probably) general skin color (again, assuming they are white) and common nationality in a land where those things are scarce. Perhaps that is why Hispanics and blacks, as minorities, tend to bond together in America becuase they share common qualities that make them closer than they are to the 'norm' WASPs. Perhaps that's why in South America an Argentinian and a Chilean are less likely to identify with each other...
I suppose the further away you get from the norm, the easier it is to eliminate some of the things that would have formerly separated you.
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Dr Strangelove
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Many of us Amricans of lightly pigmented persuasion have a major difficulty tracing all of our roots. If your ancestors were from Britain, Scotland, Germany, and France you might as well just label yourself "white". Most southerners who trace themselves back to antebellum times will also claim some Native American ancestry. This is usually a codeword signifying a trace of "brown sugar" in the gene pool.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Saint Marcus
You do know Aryans are from south Asia, don't you? |
Weren't the Aryans the people who invaded India in the 12th century BC and brought Brahmanism to the sub-continent?
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10-02-2002 00:32
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