10-02-2002 22:44									#31
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Kyle, your analysis is hilarious

	10-02-2002 22:46									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit If you give money to 3rd-world countries due to terrorism, they (correctly) will assume that terrorism leads to money, and thus support more terrorism so the US will give them more foreign aid.

Speaking of simplistic

What does "you give money to 3rd world countries due to terrorism" mean anyway?

It's not the US hasn't supported terrorism in the past. The Contras, for example.

	10-02-2002 22:47									#33
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Kyle, your analysis is hilarious

Well he is correct on at least one point. The French did withdraw from the NATO command structure becuase they found that the constraints it put on thier decision-making, sovereignty and freedom of (in)action to be unacceptable.

	10-02-2002 22:48									#34
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Kyle, your analysis is hilarious

Thanks, I try to please.

	10-02-2002 22:52									#35
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Chris Matthews to Belgian ambassador: Isnt the Reason you dont want to fight is because your really a bunch of yellow bellied cowards? Isnt it? After all you guys didnt have the cajones to stand up to hitler, Stalin, or Milosevic. This is no different.

	10-02-2002 22:54									#36
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Chris Matthews to Belgian ambassador: Isnt the Reason you dont want to fight is because your really a bunch of yellow bellied cowards? Isnt it? After all you guys didnt have the cajones to stand up to hitler, Stalin, or Milosevic. This is no different.

I really have to start watching Hardball more often.

	10-02-2002 22:57									#37
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quote: Well he is correct on at least one point. The French did withdraw from the NATO command structure becuase they found that the constraints it put on thier decision-making, sovereignty and freedom of (in)action to be unacceptable.

That was many, many years ago. Countries and governements change over time, and France is a prime example of this.

quote: Chris Matthews to Belgian ambassador: Isnt the Reason you dont want to fight is because your really a bunch of yellow bellied cowards? Isnt it? After all you guys didnt have the cajones to stand up to hitler, Stalin, or Milosevic. This is no different.

Europe didn't stand up to Hitler? Holland fought, as did France, Belgium, Britain, etc. All against Hitler. And Stalin? Did the US ever fight against Stalin? Nope, cause they were afraid of him as well. And Milosevic wasn't a threath to the EU, let alone Belgium.

Brush up on your history please.

	10-02-2002 23:05									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Europe didn't stand up to Hitler? Holland fought, as did France, Belgium, Britain, etc. All against Hitler. And Stalin? Did the US ever fight against Stalin? Nope, cause they were afraid of him as well. And Milosevic wasn't a threath to the EU, let alone Belgium. Brush up on your history please.

Why kind of revionist history books are you reading?

Belgium:Keeping with tradition, folded in the first week. France also, aww hell..you know the drill. Only england stood up to the nazi's. The rest were a bunch of sorry ass turncoats.

quote: And Stalin? Did the US ever fight against Stalin?

Berlin Airlift? Korea? No my friend.....you need to brush up on your history

quote: And Milosevic wasn't a threath to the EU, let alone Belgium.

Oh so its ok to commit genocide, as long as its not a threat to the EU? And you, who claims to hold the moral highground?

	10-02-2002 23:09									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus And Milosevic wasn't a threath to the EU, let alone Belgium.

I thought that the entire point of this thread was that countries should not have self-serving policies?

	10-02-2002 23:12									#41
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Chris Matthews to Belgian ambassador: Isnt the Reason you dont want to fight is because your really a bunch of yellow bellied cowards? Isnt it? After all you guys didnt have the cajones to stand up to hitler, Stalin, or Milosevic. This is no different.

Many Belgians died in WWII from fighting in the army against Hitler, organizing resitance against Hitler, helping jews escape.

In Belgium was everyone forced 1 year of conscription during the cold war to help protect West-Germany against possible soviet invasion by Stalin.

Belgian planes and pilots where used againsts Milosevic. Belgium gave also a lot of help towards teh Kosovarian people.

Off course didn't we do that alone but togetter with the NATO and our european friends. Or should the little army of Belgium beat Stalin, Hitler,Milosevic alone?

	10-02-2002 23:12									#42
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Why kind of revionist history books are you reading? Belgium:Keeping with tradition, folded in the first week. France also, aww hell..you know the drill. Only england stood up to the nazi's. The rest were a bunch of sorry ass turncoats.

They folded under military pressure that was far in excess of what they had to stand up to it. The Belgians, Dutch and French, along with all the other countries that were conquered by the Nazis, were not yellow cowards that wouldn't dare fight the Nazis, quite the opposite. The fact that they fought Germany despite the overwhelming advantage the Nazis had over them in terms of manpower, firepower, etc., would indicate just the opposite.

	10-02-2002 23:17									#43
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overwhelming? Allies had 3,000,000 men. And like 1000 more tanks. It was just German strategy.



Hey Chris Matthew is right tho. You guys never want to bloody your noses. Yes you want the world to listen to you.


I was waiting for Matthews to bust out and say

*chickens, Bawk, Bawk, Bawk*

	10-02-2002 23:18									#44
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The cowardice that is spoken of does not have anything to do with the armies reaction to the Germans assault (imo): frankly, there is no bravery or cowardice when there is no choice in the matter. No, imho the cowardice lies in the inaction by Europe's greatest countries in the 7-odd years prior to 1-9-39.

Which is the same course of action that is being urged upon by the US by our EU "allies." Appeasement.... do nothing and it will go away... stop asserting yourself - I mean, we didn't when Germany occupied the Rhine and everything eventually turned out OK.



As I would never accept parenting advice from my maternal grandmother, the US should never accept diplomatic and military advice from the French.

	10-02-2002 23:21									#45
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faded important question: did that guy Chris something really say these things to the belgian ambassador?

	10-02-2002 23:21									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti I am not saying that what the US is doing is good for the world , but I have a couple of comments: 1) It's natural for a government to seek the better deal for it's people ... 2) if you think that the EU is working otherwise , you're wrong. you shouldn't be surprised by it , It's in it's nature . That's like blaming a tiger for eating a person.

I´m not surprised and I´m not saying that the EU is behaving any better than the US, but the US has responsibilites against the rest of the world as well as it´s own citizens.

And there is some differences between the US and a tiger...

	10-02-2002 23:21									#47
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory (..) Oh so its ok to commit genocide, as long as its not a threat to the EU? And you, who claims to hold the moral highground?

Milosevic... Genocide? Uh, darn. Back to my history books.



Theres one american attitude what pisses me off:
They think that strength is that you kill maximum amount people who they called bad guys.

Geez.

	10-02-2002 23:26									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X [T]he US has responsibilites against the rest of the world as well as it´s own citizens.

Why? I still haven't recieved an answer to this question.

Natan: I thought that the entire point of this thread was that countries should not have self-serving policies?

Stop confusing him with reason! It only clouds his ability to rant effectively.

	10-02-2002 23:28									#49
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why? I still haven't recieved an answer to this question

Have you read my other posts in this thread?

	10-02-2002 23:31									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X Have you read my other posts in this thread?

Yes, and I don't believe that you or anyone else has answered the question that I've asked twice so far. If I have by some mistake missed a post in this thread that you believe actually does answer this question then by all means point it out to me.

	10-02-2002 23:34									#51
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory overwhelming? Allies had 3,000,000 men. And like 1000 more tanks. It was just German strategy.

Bah, learn your history, before you make dumb posts. The Dutch were neutral to start with, but were attacked nonetheless, because the German army thought it would make a good base of operations against England. The Dutch hardly had a military to speak of, no tanks, few airplanes and a conscript army. Most of their navy/army was probably based in Indonesia

They put up a good fight until the Germans decided that needed to speed things, and thus firebombed Rotterdam, killing thousands. They then gave Holland an ultimatum before they were going to move onto the next city, Amsterdam.

The leadership were shipped away to London, and the Germans took control. Dutch pilots joined the RAF foreign squadrons.
There was a very active resistance, which often resulted in German reprisals (such as when they killed all the men in Putten). They provided invaluable intelligence to the allied bombers and rescued numerous downed pilots.

Now the French, that's something different all together... Vichy France and all that.

	10-02-2002 23:36									#52
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc How so? That's the way that all State's should opperate thier foreign policy.

Yes, and types like Bush and you make me think Europe´s best foreign policy would be to ally with Russia and China against the US.

	10-02-2002 23:39									#53
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Back to the topic:

I don't care, and don't mind if the Americans want to attack other countries. Doing it in the name of fighting terrorism (how many NK suicide bombers have you seen?) is something different.

The French always moan. They are still not over the fact that they're no longer a power to be reckoned with.

The Jack Straw comment was just in response to the criticism that the State of the Union address was overly jingoistic. Still the UK will probably back any reasonable military action that the US wants to take. Relations between the UK and Iran are cooling fast, after Iran rejecting the new UK ambassador to Iran, because he apparently was a spying Jew.

	10-02-2002 23:42									#54
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quote: quote: Well he is correct on at least one point. The French did withdraw from the NATO command structure becuase they found that the constraints it put on thier decision-making, sovereignty and freedom of (in)action to be unacceptable. That was many, many years ago. Countries and governements change over time, and France is a prime example of this.

Is that why France will rejoin the NATO command if and only if an European (read French) is made command of the Med naval forces? Not self-serving indeed.

quote: quote: Chris Matthews to Belgian ambassador: Isnt the Reason you dont want to fight is because your really a bunch of yellow bellied cowards? Isnt it? After all you guys didnt have the cajones to stand up to hitler, Stalin, or Milosevic. This is no different. Europe didn't stand up to Hitler? Holland fought, as did France, Belgium, Britain, etc. All against Hitler. And Stalin? Did the US ever fight against Stalin? Nope, cause they were afraid of him as well. And Milosevic wasn't a threath to the EU, let alone Belgium. Brush up on your history please.

I think, although it is a harsh generalization, that Europe has a history of letting dictators get in power and not do anything until it was too late, and military action is required. Then again, we are looking at hindsight, since who knew (at the time) that Mussolini and Hitler would be that bad back in 34' or so. Heck, the French even had a couple of military ties to Facist Italy before the Axis of Steel pact.

	10-02-2002 23:45									#55
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quote: Originally posted by SMAC Fanatic The trouble with the US is that it takes the interests, not of its citizens, but of the major companies, far far too seriously, often at the expense of so many other people it's scary.

Am I the only one reading this thread that laughs at this sheer hypocracy of this statement?

	10-02-2002 23:45									#56
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why? I still haven't recieved an answer to this question.

So doesn't simply morality count? The fact that you can't simply screw over everyone else in the world for your own purposes? Don't you have any morals whatsoever?

	10-02-2002 23:46									#57
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why? I still haven't recieved an answer to this question.

Because either
a) The USA is the defender of the free world etc. etc. and b!tches constantly about it, or
b) The USA shouldn't have to be the defender of the free world etc. etc., can persue all the isolationist, FTW-ist policies it likes, and quit whining when it has to participate in international politics.

	10-02-2002 23:47									#58
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quote: Originally posted by gopher Am I the only one reading this thread that laughs at this sheer hypocracy of this statement?

Where's the hypocrisy? I never said that the UK or anywhere else doesn't do it too, I'm just saying it's fundamentally wrong, and that IMNO the US does it more than anyone else.

	10-02-2002 23:49									#59
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I think DinoDoc, repulsive as the guy is, has a point: Europe needs a self-serving foreign policy. Which would be a foreign policy of keeping the US in check, instead of sucking up to them. Vedrine is OK, but the same was recently said much more bluntly by the Iranian religious leader: 'All the world hates American arrogance and hypocrisy.'

More and more, I think this is a statement to fully agree with.

	10-02-2002 23:49									#60
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the EU has announced that they support a Palestinian state. Yet another example of European unilateralism. It's the leadersof the EU who make Americans think their best foreign policy idea is to ally with Russian and the UK. I'm curious what the Europeans find wrong with AMerican mideast policy, considering that:


1) The USA gives more money to Egypt than to Israel.

2) The US encouraged Israel to give Arafat everything he wanted except for all of Jerusalem. Which, naturally, led to a continuation of the attacks.

3) The US wants a period of peace between the two nations before going back to peace talks. A week was too long a time period of peace. Either Arafat's incapable of controlling the terrorists, in which case, promises with him are null and void, or Arafat's supporting them.

http://europe.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/me...east/index.html

I love this quote: " But Spanish Foreign Minister Josep Pique, who chaired the meetings that began Friday, said political solutions must become a priority, since there has been no success in stopping the violence. "

But if there's no peace, then it's pointless to negotiate.