10-02-2002 23:52									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune I think DinoDoc, repulsive as the guy is, has a point: Europe needs a self-serving foreign policy. Which would be a foreign policy of keeping the US in check, instead of sucking up to them. Vedrine is OK, but the same was recently said much more bluntly by the Iranian religious leader: 'All the world hates American arrogance and hypocrisy.' More and more, I think this is a statement to fully agree with.

*applauds yet again*

If we and the American people aren't careful, the American government is going to trample all over everyone.

	10-02-2002 23:54									#62
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Sharon is the worst warmonger of the Middle East, and the US fully support him. If anything, European critique of that is too inconsistent.

	10-02-2002 23:58									#63
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quote: Originally posted by SMAC Fanatic If we and the American people aren't careful, the American government is going to trample all over everyone.

The American people seem to like it, though. Although they are short-changed, because the money wasted could be spent on something useful. Americans today are just as masochistic as the Germans in the 1930s.

	10-02-2002 23:59									#64
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quote: Originally posted by gopher I think, although it is a harsh generalization, that Europe has a history of letting dictators get in power and not do anything until it was too late, and military action is required.

And the US has a history of putting dictators in power, and occassionally later attacking them when the dictator begins to believe he is indispensible to America (Noriega, Hussein). Furthermore, the US had supported Hitler up until he began gobbling up everything around him. The US thought he was a great bulwark against Bolshevism, so don't get on a high horse and pretend America's foreign policy smells like roses. Our foreign policy is among the bloodiest of the 20th Century.

Furthermore, Dalgetti, the US does not carry out a foreign policy that is favorable to its own citizens. US citizens have no material interest in bombing Serbia or fighting Iraq or propping up Israel or any of the other hundreds of evil things the US has done. After all, we often pay the price of these polices. Americans did not benefit from invading Vietnam (although we benefitted from fighting against our government over the invasion of Vietnam).

A more humane policy towards the rest of the world would greatly benefit Americans, from reduced terrorism gainst us, to having to fight less wars and catch less bullets, to less environmental pollution to less loss of jobs overseas because of US policies that keep foreign labor union free. American business benefits greatly, but the American people do not.

	11-02-2002 00:01									#65
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Yes, and I don't believe that you or anyone else has answered the question that I've asked twice so far. If I have by some mistake missed a post in this thread that you believe actually does answer this question then by all means point it out to me.

OK, for you and other reading impaired in this thread I´ll take it from the top:

quote: The US is the worlds biggest economy and only remaining superpower but that doesn´t give them the right to treat the earth like their own private plaything.

quote: Originally posted by SMAC Fanatic So doesn't simply morality count? The fact that you can't simply screw over everyone else in the world for your own purposes? Don't you have any morals whatsoever?

Do you understand now, Dino?

	11-02-2002 00:02									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Faeelin the EU has announced that they support a Palestinian state. Yet another example of European unilateralism.

19 countries acted unilaterly together? Please explain how countries can act unilateraly together. I'm very curious about this concept of joint unilateral action.

	11-02-2002 00:03									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune I think DinoDoc, repulsive as the guy is, has a point: Europe needs a self-serving foreign policy. Which would be a foreign policy of keeping the US in check, instead of sucking up to them. Vedrine is OK, but the same was recently said much more bluntly by the Iranian religious leader: 'All the world hates American arrogance and hypocrisy.' More and more, I think this is a statement to fully agree with.

Amen to that, Comrade

	11-02-2002 00:04									#68
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But wait, isn't the European Union one nation?

It was just a little sarcasm to how its essentially different states of the EU agreeing on something.

	11-02-2002 00:06									#69
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quote: Originally posted by SMAC Fanatic So doesn't simply morality count?

No, it does not. Personal morality and foreign policy don't mix IMO because it only causes unnecessary conflict.

quote: Don't you have any morals whatsoever?

Ad hominems only hurt your case.

Comrade Tribune: I think DinoDoc, repulsive as the guy is, has a point: Europe needs a self-serving foreign policy.

1) You wound me to the core with your biting wit. *sobs*

2) Europe (France especially) already has a self-serving foreign policy. Unless you'd like to tell me where the so-called guardian of human rights was during the Rawandan genocide just as an example.

	11-02-2002 00:14									#70
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quote: the EU has announced that they support a Palestinian state. Yet another example of European unilateralism. It's the leadersof the EU who make Americans think their best foreign policy idea is to ally with Russian and the UK. I'm curious what the Europeans find wrong with AMerican mideast policy, considering that

1. European unilateralism? The EU consists of many countries, thus is multilateral. Add to that, that the EU's proposal is applauded by more countries in the ME than the US' proposal.
2. Leaders of the EU? Same as above, the EU consists of many countries and therefor has many leaders, INCLUDING the leaders of the UK. Which leads to point 3.
3. Side with the UK and Russia? Funny since the UK is part of the EU, and is part of making the EU's ME policies.
4. Wrong with the US' foreign policies? Europeans find the blind backing of Sharon repulsive. Sure, Arafat is a bastard too, but no worse than Sharon. Backing one, and not the other, is hypocratic. Both warmongers should be part of the peace process, not just one.

quote: Unless you'd like to tell me where the so-called guardian of human rights was during the Rawandan genocide just as an example.

Guess why Ruwandese warcriminals are tried now in European (read Belgian) courts.

	11-02-2002 00:19									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Guess why Ruwandese warcriminals are tried now in European (read Belgian) courts.

Which is a far cry from European (military) actions during the break up of Yugoslavia now isn't it?

	11-02-2002 00:24									#72
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 faded important question: did that guy Chris something really say these things to the belgian ambassador?

Yes, he hosts a show on MSNBC called hardball at aound 4:00pm (think). (good ratings)

quote: Guess why Ruwandese warcriminals are tried now in European (read Belgian) courts.

wooohooo!!! We arrest a bunch of nun's who didnt give shelter to refugees!


Yet the men with machette's still walk freely.

	11-02-2002 00:25									#73
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hey is Lieichtenstien a member of the EU?

	11-02-2002 00:27									#74
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Not really, but who cares? We can accommodate the funny little gatecrashers like Liechtenstein and San Marino.

	11-02-2002 01:27									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Speaking of simplistic What does "you give money to 3rd world countries due to terrorism" mean anyway? It's not the US hasn't supported terrorism in the past. The Contras, for example.

"We must address the causes of terrorism" means "we will contribute to programs set up in order to improve conditions in 3rd-world countries". This is spending money due to terrorism. Most of this money will end up in the hands of the government, as shown, for example, by Saddam Hussein's willingness to sacrifice his people to buy weaponry.

And Mr. Tribune, please name the last time Sharon has invaded a country (i.e. caused war). You can say many things about this guy, but calling him the biggest warmonger in the Middle East is not one of them.

And if you want to see hypocrisy, look at Yasser Arafat's speeches in English vs. his speeches in Arabic.

	11-02-2002 04:16									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit And Mr. Tribune, please name the last time Sharon has invaded a country (i.e. caused war). You can say many things about this guy, but calling him the biggest warmonger in the Middle East is not one of them.

I assume killing Palestinians and destroying their property in territories illegally occupied doesn´t count? Well, keeping to your definitions the #1 warmonger in the middle east is the US.

	11-02-2002 04:24									#77
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quote: American business benefits greatly, but the American people do not.

What benefits American business benefits the American people.

And I think Dalgetti hit it right on the head. Governments are elected to push what they think is best for its people. To governments, YES, 280 million people are more important than 6 billion others. The ones outside of the US don't vote in US elections, they don't put the leaders into power.

	11-02-2002 04:43									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui YES, 280 million people are more important than 6 billion others. The ones outside of the US don't vote in US elections, they don't put the leaders into power.

It was a very similar conviction that drove Hitler. Had all the Germans thought like you, he could even have kept up with democracy.

	11-02-2002 04:55									#79
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The idiotic analogies involving America and Nazi Germany are making my head hurt. Can we please keep the hyperbole to a minimum? They might not have "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" in Austria, but you would do well to read it...

	11-02-2002 05:10									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten The idiotic analogies involving America and Nazi Germany are making my head hurt. Can we please keep the hyperbole to a minimum? They might not have "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" in Austria, but you would do well to read it...

Iirc, that is an Aesop fable so it is likely that they've heard of it in Austria.

	11-02-2002 05:23									#81
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Europe has learned after 2 world wars that cooperation between countries is needed, since then has there be no longer war between the super powers of western europe.

But some still haven't learned the lessons of the World Wars.

Unilaterism can be very dangerous, the unilateristic attitude of the countries in Versail caused WWII. If they would have even listened a little to German instead of sending it all punishments of hell, would there have been no WWII.

	11-02-2002 05:49									#82
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quote: Originally posted by kolpo Europe has learned after 2 world wars that cooperation between countries is needed, since then has there be no longer war between the super powers of western europe. But some still haven't learned the lessons of the World Wars. Unilaterism can be very dangerous, the unilateristic attitude of the countries in Versail caused WWII. If they would have even listened a little to German instead of sending it all punishments of hell, would there have been no WWII.

Umm

the countries were multilateral when it came to punishing germany



the US was the one the unilaterally didn't punish Germany

Jon Miller

	11-02-2002 05:53									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Americans today are just as masochistic as the Germans in the 1930s.

Unfortunately you may be right about that, if the rhetoric from FoxNews is any indication. Particularly Ann Coulter's remarks the other night on Hannity&Colmes about how John Walker Lindh should be put to death as a warning to liberals. She seems to think they're all traitors and proud of it. Given that FoxNews is the #1 cable news network in the country, I don't like the ideas they're putting into people's heads.

	11-02-2002 05:55									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: American business benefits greatly, but the American people do not. What benefits American business benefits the American people.

There is not a one to one correlation. Sometimes it benefits us, ofttimes not. On pollution, labor rights, etc., what benefits business hurts Americans, and vice versa. When we go to war to defend the right of corporations to make excessive profits, it's average Americans who catch the bullets, not business.

	11-02-2002 06:53									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten The idiotic analogies involving America and Nazi Germany are making my head hurt.

Yes, some people believe thinking hurts. And the truth hurts even more.

	11-02-2002 06:57									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Jules Particularly Ann Coulter's remarks the other night on Hannity&Colmes about how John Walker Lindh should be put to death as a warning to liberals. She seems to think they're all traitors and proud of it.

This also indicates her confusing Taliban and Liberals? Are there many like her on the loose?

	11-02-2002 07:01									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Yes, some people believe thinking hurts. And the truth hurts even more.

You honestly think that the behavior of the United States is in any way comparable to that of Nazi Germany? I sincerely hope that you are joking. It's perfectly alright to disagree with American policies, but to equate them with the policies of Nazi Germany is absurd and idiotic. If you think that this is the "truth", then you have some serious problems.

	11-02-2002 07:30									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten You honestly think that the behavior of the United States is in any way comparable to that of Nazi Germany? I sincerely hope that you are joking. It's perfectly alright to disagree with American policies, but to equate them with the policies of Nazi Germany is absurd and idiotic. If you think that this is the "truth", then you have some serious problems.

Is the fact that your avatar is the German Panzer unit somehow related to your political opinions?

The comparison should be obvious to anybody watching things without prejudice: Attempt at world takeover = attempt at world takeover. Going to war without casus belli = going to war without casus belli. Ignoring the Geneva Convention = ignoring the Geneva Convention. Jews then = 'Towel Heads' now.

It is harder to see the differences between USA and Nazi Germany than the similarities. There are some differences, however: Hitler´s policies were not quite as popular. He couldn´t afford to keep the semblance of a democracy; the US obviously can. Goebbels would be proud of your TV and newspapers.

	11-02-2002 08:04									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune The comparison should be obvious to anybody watching things without prejudice: Attempt at world takeover = attempt at world takeover. Going to war without casus belli = going to war without casus belli. Ignoring the Geneva Convention = ignoring the Geneva Convention. Jews then = 'Towel Heads' now.

I can't believe you are serious about this. Do you know anything about Nazi Germany? How anyone could compare America and Nazi Germany and come to the conclusion that they are similar is beyond me, but you seem to have achieved the impossible. Your arguments, however, are flimsy at best.

1. Attempt at world takeover : How did you come to the conclusion that America is bent on world conquest? Do you have some sort of proof for this statement, or is it just a paranoid theory on your part? I myself have problems with American foreign policy, but to claim that the US is out for world conquest is laughable. America's policy is light years away from the naked aggression of Nazi Germany.

2. Going to war without a casus belli : What conflict are you referring to? If you mean the war in Afghanistan, I think that 9/11 was a very real casus belli. If you are referring to Iraq, I still think the US has a legitimate reason to attack as Iraq is not honoring the agreement that ended the Gulf War. You may not like the reasons for America's actions, but there are reasons (unlike most of Nazi Germany's invasions).

3. Ignoring the Geneva Convention : While technically true, this comparison is terrible. How is the US treatment of prisoners at Gitmo in any way similar to the treatment of prisoners by the Nazis? There is a huge difference between the American questioning of Al-Qaeda operatives and the Nazi's performing medical experiments on Polish and Russian troops. The fact that America does not want to treat Al Qaeda operatives as POW's does not make America similar to the Nazi's by any stretch of the imagination.

4. Jews=Arabs : Are you serious? The US government has gone out of its way to stress that this is not a war against Islam or Arabs. How is this comparable to the Nazi's "Final Solution"? Not only is this argument false, it is offensive to anyone who knows about the Holocaust and the millions killed by the Nazi's.

If you really want to bash America by comparing them to some other power in history, at least have the intelligence to pick an appropriate example. I'll even help you out; if America is similar to anyone, it is the British Empire. To compare America to the Nazis is just stupid and reflects badly upon you and your intelligence.

	11-02-2002 08:18									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune I assume killing Palestinians and destroying their property in territories illegally occupied doesn´t count? Well, keeping to your definitions the #1 warmonger in the middle east is the US.

1) Even someone so distant from the US should know that it isn't in the Middle East. Nor have they started wars; just intervened (rightly or wrongly).

2) The above is a loaded question. It assumes something completely different from the question. It's like if I said, "did your store's sales increase or decrease as a result of manipulative advertising?" As it stands, Israel conquered these territories in war. Are Alsace and Lorraine illegaly occupied by France? The killing Palestinians is justified because said Palestinians were trying to kill them. The property destruction is a longer argument, which I'm sure Natan and Siro will indulge in repeating.