11-02-2002 10:04									#1
	Civilization = Van Halen Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The ongoing debate between the "fanboys" and the "whiners" reminds me of the fans of a certain rock band about 15 years ago.

For those of you who either aren't fans of hard rock or were too young, when Van Halen came out in 1978 it was a stunning record (yeah record, not CD), highly original and just totally kicked a$$. Van Halen became extremely popular with a large and fanatical fan base. This continued for several years until singer David Lee Roth left the band. Sammy Hagar replaced him, and after that Van Halen's sound was forever changed. A good sized number of former fans (one could say a "vocal minority") claimed that the new incarnation of the band sucked and they were only interested in making money (sound familiar?). Meanwhile despite the protestations of their former fans, Van Halen sold more albums and singles and were generally more successful after Roth left. Yet to this day, most metal fans will tell you that the David Lee Roth-era Van Halen was the greatest rock band ever. Meanwhile not a lot of people make the same claim about Van Hagar.

So what does this mean? David Lee (or Sid and Brian) have left. Civ plays different. A lot of people like Civ 3, and a lot of people have bought Civ 3. But a lot of people don't like it, because it is not really the same game that blew everyone away 10 years ago. I have played Civ 3 and to me it's okay. Not great, not all-out addicting like when I brought home the original, just okay. Some parts are good, some really annoying - sorta like Sammy Hagar-era Van Halen. In 10 years, people will still be saying that Civ and Civ 2 were the greatest games ever made. Not many people will be saying the same about Civ 3.

The "whiners" wanted to be blown away, just like Civ 1 and Civ 2 did. Perhaps it's a bit much to ask that a 10 year old game concept be as mind-blowing nowadays.

	11-02-2002 15:13									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

An inteesting comparison, BucksRock. There certainly is a desire for civ fans to want to be "blown" away. I know I wanted to get that "one-more-turn" syndrome back in civ 111.

Who says there are no "moral" lessons to be learned from big band rock'n'roll?

Note, though good, no Van Halen era was the greatest.

	11-02-2002 15:45									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yep, Interesting post, But i dont think it's too much to ask for Civ III to blow us away. I think a lot think that, if certain things were changed/fixed in Civ III, it would be a very good game indeed.

	11-02-2002 15:50									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Perhaps it's just that Civ fans aren't the sorts to get carried away with mob reactions (mindless like/dislike of something), and we expect too much of an improvement on the other games due to our discernment.

	11-02-2002 18:44									#5
	But don't forget Put an end to popups!

That in Infrogrames and Firaxis labled Civ3 as the Greatest Civ game ever in thier advertisments and on thier web pages and here if I am not mistaken, and also in interviews in magazines.

I beleive IMHO it's thier fault that we have had Very High expectations of this game and expected to have our socks knocked off us.

Davor

	11-02-2002 19:30									#6
	Re: But don't forget Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Yolky That in Infrogrames and Firaxis labled Civ3 as the Greatest Civ game ever in thier advertisments and on thier web pages and here if I am not mistaken, and also in interviews in magazines. I beleive IMHO it's thier fault that we have had Very High expectations of this game and expected to have our socks knocked off us. Davor

Oh come off it. Hyping a product is just standard market practice. Of course they're going to say it's the best ever, I wouldn't expect anything else. If you're so easily swayed that you believe every product pitch that comes your way, then you're due for a life full of disappointments and an empty bank account.

	11-02-2002 20:10									#7
	Re: Re: But don't forget Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Willem Oh come off it. Hyping a product is just standard market practice. Of course they're going to say it's the best ever, I wouldn't expect anything else. If you're so easily swayed that you believe everything product pitch that comes your way, then you're due for a life full of disappointments and an empty bank account.

That's how I viewed AvP2. I knew it was going to be a flop for my game tastes.

	11-02-2002 20:12									#8
	Support Apolyton

Sure, but what kind of slogan would "Civilization III: Rewrite History with the 264th Greatest Game of All Time" be?

	11-02-2002 20:17									#9
	Support Apolyton

reason they sold more when he left is cos van halen then proceded tro turn into a pop group.

compare Van Halen (the first album) to Van Halen 3 (the last). no comparison. each album seemed to become more pop then the last.

and after Eruption and Spanish fly, nothing else quite cuts it.

	11-02-2002 21:11									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

We have yet to see whether the analogy also pertains to the crappy solo career of Roth after he left Van Halen. What game is Sid or Brian's "California Girls" ?

	11-02-2002 21:42									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

sim-golf?

dinosaurs?

	11-02-2002 21:42									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Slax We have yet to see whether the analogy also pertains to the crappy solo career of Roth after he left Van Halen. What game is Sid or Brian's "California Girls" ?

Hey alright, we live in the same city.

	11-02-2002 21:43									#13
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man reason they sold more when he left is cos van halen then proceded tro turn into a pop group. compare Van Halen (the first album) to Van Halen 3 (the last). no comparison. each album seemed to become more pop then the last.

No way!!! Fair Warning was the fourth, heaviest (some say darkest) and in my opinion the best of the collection.

But speaking of VH3, BucksRock although making an awesome analogy failed to take into consideration the embarassingly short stint of Gary Cherone in the band.

Following the comparison, we can expect CivIV to be something along the lines of Pong...

	11-02-2002 21:47									#14
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Speaking of Van Halen, doesn't the picture of Rifleman in Civilopedia look like the guy is playing guitar instead of holding a rifle?

	11-02-2002 21:51									#15
	Tired of ads?

I have to admit I've been trying unsuccessfully for several hours to find a way to work a "Hot for Teacher" joke into this thread.

Dan

	11-02-2002 22:08									#16
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS I have to admit I've been trying unsuccessfully for several hours to find a way to work a "Hot for Teacher" joke into this thread. Dan

Hey Dan, while you're here, any idea what might be causing the game to reset my science rate every turn with the mod I've been working on? For at least 10 turns last night, I would set it to 10%, and then the next turn it would automatically reset to 40%. I ran the original Bic file and the problem didn't come up, but as soon as I switched back to my mod, it started again. Is there some game rule I'm overlooking, or is this just a wierd bug?

	11-02-2002 22:45									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Personally, I liked Van Halen better with Sammy Hagar... but the Gary Cherone experiment was an absolute failure.

I think it's too early to tell if Civ3 is a "Hagar" or a "Cherone"... the initial release has a lot of room for improvement, but with further patches and expansion packs, it could easily equal or surpass the playability of Civ2.

	11-02-2002 22:48									#18
	Put an end to popups!

"There's a little bit of Van Halen in everybody."
-David Lee Roth

	12-02-2002 01:57									#19
	Inflate your Upload Space

FNBrown pointed out the flaw in the analogy. Van Halen had three incarnations, as does the Civ series.

Therefore, Civ 1 would be Roth.
Civ 2 Sam Halen/Van Hagar
Civ 3 = the short whatisface period.

I prefer the Godfather film analogy, but I don't agree with the analysis of Part 1 Great, Part 2 Greatest, Part 3 pretty good but a disappointment.

I'm sorry to say that I can't think of an analogy that isn't hopelessly obscure.

	12-02-2002 01:57									#20
	Indulge me... Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

My feelings on CivIII--using a few slightly altered lines from a Halen song...

Come on baby finish what you started. It's incomplete! That ain't no way to treat the broken hearted. Baby come on. Baby come on...

	12-02-2002 07:31									#21
	Remove this text

Gary Cherone??? *shudder*

Sorry, I guess I blocked him out.

To continue the analogy, I guess if CIV 4 had the exact same maps every game, and the AI made the exact same moves every game I guess that would qualify as a "Cherone". Please, let's not go there...