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Lonestar
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AECCP Dark Lord of the Sith
Aug 2000
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
Think about it for a moment: Natives usually sided with the Brits;
they did this for a reason, right?
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They usually sided with the French dude.
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The English were against uncontrolled colonial expansion. The reasons may have been purely bureaucratic; but there is no doubt their policies helped the Indians. |
only Indirectly. HRH George III knew that once the colonists were over the Appalaccian Mountains, his control would grow even more loose.
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That the American Revolution was mostly propelled by the selfish reasons of a clique of wealthy businessmen/landowners (and not by the usual freedom-blah-blah) |
You know, except for Thomas Paine, Sam Adams, Hamilton, John Adams, Ben. Franklin.
quote:
not even most US university history teachers will dispute; ask a few. And those landowners (including Washington himself) profited, some directly, some indirectly, from the theft of Indian territory. Do Americans really not know that?  |
You must get all kinds of American University History Teachers in Austria. What Community College are they from?
Sure, many folks profited from the revolution, but not in ways you realize. Those who profited most were the American Merchant fleet, then centered in New England which had long ago been cleared of Natives.
Of course, during this time, the Austrian Empire was busily destroying all non-German speaking villages in Central Europe, and where once there were hundreds of languages, there were few. (German, Magyar, Czech, Slovak)
So, get of your High Horse. The fact of the matter is, your knowledge of American History seems to be centered around the belief "It was all so they could kill Indians". Must be some wild cannabis parties European US History teachers throw.
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Comrade Tribune
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Vienna, Austria
Nov 1999
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Lonestar
They usually sided with the French dude.
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Not in the War of Independence.
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You know, except for Thomas Paine, Sam Adams, Hamilton, John Adams, Ben. Franklin. |
Hamilton?
That guy was a profiteer if there ever was one. The others, except for Paine, are also not above suspicion.
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Of course, during this time, the Austrian Empire was busily destroying all non-German speaking villages in Central Europe, and where once there were hundreds of languages, there were few. (German, Magyar, Czech, Slovak) |
 Austria assimilated everybody, rather than destroying them; we were the Borg of Central Europe. 
But at least we never pretended to stand for 'freedom'.
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So, get of your High Horse. The fact of the matter is, your knowledge of American History seems to be centered around the belief "It was all so they could kill Indians". |
American history was, and is, all about selfishness, profiteering and sheer stupidity. With a little genocide thrown in every now and then.
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Lonestar
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AECCP Dark Lord of the Sith
Aug 2000
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
Not in the War of Independence.
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I think you are thinking fo the War of 1812.
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Hamilton?
That guy was a profiteer if there ever was one. The others, except for Paine, are also not above suspicion.
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Be nice. The guy was the Bastard son of a Barbados whore.
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Austria assimilated everybody, rather than destroying them; we were the Borg of Central Europe.
But at least we never pretended to stand for 'freedom'. |
Well, I guess that's true. But the point of the matter is, the Proto-United States were the most free government in existance at the time. Again, mostly because of British influence :: tips hat at British posters ::
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American history was, and is, all about selfishness, profiteering and sheer stupidity. With a little genocide thrown in every now and then. |
...said the Kettle to the...wait, damn. Already said that in this thread.
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Lars-E
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The Turkish invasion was stopped at Austria, not?
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Roland
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Auf'm Jahrmarkt :(
May 1999
time: 06:17
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Chris:
"And as usual Roland, it went straight over your head."
Nope, it was very nice, but not really a good troll to counter. Too confused and absurd on your side.
"You and your appologists have been droning on how Europe only acts for "moral reasons"."
Where have I said that ? That's so ****ing ridiculous (the claim as such and you attributing it to me) it almost hurts.
"What country suddenly doesn't like US policy? France."
Suddenly?
"My "solution" is to stop being hypocritical, and addmitting Europe opposses action against them on financial grounds, instead of the smoke screen thrown out by the French foriegn minister."
Not that simple. The approach is trade with'em, but neither get in bed with them nor start a war with them. Doesn't always work (see french support for the Algerian regime for example), it's not always followed, but it's a realistic approach. The US on the other hand gets into a honeymoon with a regime (Chile, Panama, the Shah), or fanatically demonizes a regime (Cuba, Iraq post 1990), based on some random calculation (throwing coins, maybe).
Both the US and Europe seek to underlay this policy with the moral highground. I'm more concerned with the practical and ethical implications of the results. Let's take Iran - do you want a trade embargo ? Do you want a war ? What do you want to do about it?
"No other non-asian nation deals with them, and Germany was in full accord with the US UNTILL North Korea was mentioned."
You have a serious problem with stats. No other non-asian nation is among those listed on that CIA site - which is, of course, not complete. I can't be arsed to search for north korean trade stats, but as things like food aid etc are technically counted as NK imports (which may or may not be done in those CIA stats), I'm sure the US is not far behind Germany as a trading partner. The little trade with NK does not move one flake of dust in Germany's foreign office. It's not even peanuts.
"... and end with Dubya attack."
I can't resist. He's just so incredibly dumb.
"I was showiing, and quite successfully, that France and Germany's sudden opposition seems to fit perfectly with their trade partners, but, as usual, Roland tells us it's just buisness."
I'm not sure what the message of this convoluted sentence is. But to explain it to you:
France's opposition on Iraq is not sudden, and it is tied into economic and strategic self interest. Germany's opposition on Iran is inter alia about trade with Iran, but to say that Germany goes against a US policy for 30 million $ in trade with North Korea is so absurd that it spoils every troll.
Last edited by Roland on 13-02-2002 at 20:54
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Chris 62
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But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Roland
Nope, it was very nice, but not really a good troll to counter. Too confused and absurd on your side. |
Not at all.
We both know that France will always follow the money, so the uproar about there sudden appearence of backbone is absurd.
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Where have I said that ? That's so ****ing ridiculous (the claim as such and you attributing it to me) it almost hurts. |
You know this whole thread is a theater of the absurd!
You do often gloss over salient points that hurt Europe's image, and have an...let's say "interesting" view of US politics.
They made thier fears public, thus "suddenly".
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Not that simple. The approach is trade with'em, but neither get in bed with them nor start a war with them. |
Very difficult, and morally questionable.quote:
Doesn't always work (see french support for the Algerian regime for example), it's not always followed, but it's a realistic approach. |
Maybe it's time for a fresh approach, that doesn't tolerate barbaric behavior, might be in order, but very difficult to pull off.quote:
The US on the other hand gets into a honeymoon with a regime (Chile, Panama, the Shah), or fanatically demonizes a regime (Cuba, Iraq post 1990), based on some random calculation (throwing coins, maybe). |
Actually, it depends on the government in question.
Though your right, there does seem to be little ryme nor reason to it.
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Both the US and Europe seek to underlay this policy with the moral highground. I'm more concerned with the practical and ethical implications of the results. Let's take Iran - do you want a trade embargo ? Do you want a war ? What do you want to do about it? |
I think they see the west as "the pot calling the kettle black".
My point, which i think you understand, is the USA isn't a demon, and Europe is just as responcible for the shape of the world today, moreso even.
In real politik, Britain and France only renouced their empires because they couldn't afford them any longer after two crippling world wars.
For some of our "friends" to sit here and preach morality is quite laughable, as laughable as it would be for the US to do the same.
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You have a serious problem with stats. No other non-asian nation is among those listed on that CIA site - which is, of course, not complete. I can't be arsed to search for north korean trade stats, but as things like food aid etc are technically counted as NK imports (which may or may not be done in those CIA stats), I'm sure the US is not far behind Germany as a trading partner. The little trade with NK does not move one flake of dust in Germany's foreign office. It's not even peanuts. |
Man, you missed that!
It was an inside joke, using the CIA to back a postion on Europe's motives!
I thought for sure you would see that.
I think that search was about 20 seconds on my part, it was easy to find those links.
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I can't resist. He's just so incredibly dumb. |
I think what you see as "dumb" is really a lack of refinment.
The man may come off as silly, but he's quite intelligent, and far more dangerous then you realize.
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I'm not sure what the message of this convoluted sentence is. But to explain it to you:
France's opposition on Iraq is not sudden, and it is tied into economic and strategic self interest. Germany's opposition on Iran is inter alia about trade with Iran, but to say that Germany goes against a US policy for 30 million $ in trade with North Korea is so absurd that it spoils every troll. |
Needed a link to the third nation, tenuous though it was.
France will always follow the money.
It was laughable to see some Europeans "applauding" the French minister in another thread.
All nations act in their own self interest, that's why the world is the way it is.
To claim france suddenly found morality at this point is a major hoot! 
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13-02-2002 04:58
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