12-02-2002 00:09									#1
	Resolved: All the world's problems are Europe's fault. Tired of ads?

You know, it really only seems fair.

Every European with a computer seems to be quick to critize to United States, which is, of course, their perogative.

As this is my perogative.

The vast majority of thw World's problems are Europe's fault, simple as that.

Pakistan-India? Britain's fault.

The long state of dictatorships in Latin America? Spain's fault.

Long, bloody civil wars in sub-sahara Africa? Europe in General, Belgium in particular when the arbitrary drew up boundries with no regard to tribal areas.

Palestine? Britain's fault....they made too many promises they couldn't(or wouldn't) keep, and when it got to hot, they passed the buck to the UN.

Communist China? Wouldn't have happened were it not for European "Spheres of Infulence"

East Timor? Portugese incompetance, and Dutch mismanagment in Indonsia.

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They fact is....it's all Europe's fault. All of it. Not America's. Sure, in the past 40 odd years we've made horrible mistakes, especially in regards to Latine America.

But that's all small potatos compared to Europe's screw-ups, which created the chaos of today.

Adios.

	12-02-2002 00:17									#2
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True. I don't think you'll find any Euros here who will defend what happened during the colonial times.

	12-02-2002 00:25									#3
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue True. I don't think you'll find any Euros here who will defend what happened during the colonial times.

Well, I wouldn't expect them to. That would be like me trying to defend our recognization(sp) of Noriega in Panama...it's stupid to.

It just burns my Butt that many, many, Europeans seem to blame American because of her Foriegn Policy...while ignoring most of our foriegn policy is a reaction to the problems they caused.

	12-02-2002 00:26									#4
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Can't really argue with any of that.

	12-02-2002 00:26									#5
	Re: Resolved: All the world's problems are Europe's fault. Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Lonestar You know, it really only seems fair. Every European with a computer seems to be quick to critize to United States, which is, of course, their perogative. As this is my perogative. The vast majority of thw World's problems are Europe's fault, simple as that. Pakistan-India? Britain's fault.

Not really. Most of the problems stem from Hindu and Muslim refusal to work together - Kashmir is a case in point. The partition happened against British wishes but to ensure that independance happened.

quote: The long state of dictatorships in Latin America? Spain's fault.

Eh? How is spain responsible for events 100 years after South American independance?

quote: Long, bloody civil wars in sub-sahara Africa? Europe in General, Belgium in particular when the arbitrary drew up boundries with no regard to tribal areas.

For a poster from belgium to comment on.

quote: Palestine? Britain's fault....they made too many promises they couldn't(or wouldn't) keep, and when it got to hot, they passed the buck to the UN.

In fairness these isn't any way that anyone could have controlled the events in that region of the world. The Jews were determined thay would have their state. the Arabs were determined they wouldn't. Britain doesn't have the clout or prestige to solve the problem and America isn't interested in doing anything more than supporting the Jews. Ergo it makes sense for the UN to take charge.

quote: Communist China? Wouldn't have happened were it not for European "Spheres of Infulence"

Nonsense. Communism in China arose from the corruption of the existing government and the upheaval caused by the Japanese invasion.

quote: East Timor? Portugese incompetance, and Dutch mismanagment in Indonsia.

Indonesian refusal abetted by the US to comply with existing agreements.
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quote: They fact is....it's all Europe's fault. All of it. Not America's. Sure, in the past 40 odd years we've made horrible mistakes, especially in regards to Latine America. But that's all small potatos compared to Europe's screw-ups, which created the chaos of today. Adios.

Bullshit

	12-02-2002 00:29									#6
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Dont forget Kuwait,Yugoslavia, Versaille, aparthied, afghanistan (if you consider Russia part of Europe) and Zimbabwe.


And the british monopolists/imperialists and the **** they did to native peoples.


related,
Does anybody know why the spinning wheel is a symbol on the Indian flag?

	12-02-2002 00:31									#7
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Europe has made it's mistakes in the past, granted.

We created the US after all.


No seriously. Europe has made terrible mistakes, but I don't think we should be held accountable for what our distant ancestors did long before we were born.

That still leaves some more recent mistakes, but in that regard European nations aren't any worse than, say, China or the USA.

Furthermore, the US simply can't have caused as many problems as Europe, since it only exists for 200 years, and spend most of it's time building the country up.

Also, you use the term "Europe" way too broadly. Tell me the world problems caused by Luxembourgh or Sweden.


However, as said, this lies (mostly) in the distant past, while America's mistakes lie in the not distant past and are happening right this minute.


Though I deeply regret what my country, and my countries neighbours have done to the world in the centuries before I was born. All we can do now is try to heal those wounds, and make sure they won't happen again.

	12-02-2002 00:33									#8
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quote: Eh? How is spain responsible for events 100 years after South American independance?

Zero-to-nil local, elected government. That's one area the USA can thank Britain for. :: tips hat to British posters ::

quote: Nonsense. Communism in China arose from the corruption of the existing government and the upheaval caused by the Japanese invasion.

No, it rose because the peasentry were tired of the central government catering to European Interests. Inaddition, the Chinese red Army arose in the '20's, before the Japanese invasion.

quote: Indonesian refusal abetted by the US to comply with existing agreements.

I was actually refering to the intial takeover by Indonesia, not the more recent events.

quote: Bullshit

Which is a common reaction when confronted with ugly truths.

	12-02-2002 00:33									#9
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It is ridiculous to ascribe blame to countries when in all cases there have been changes of government, and in most cases the people who made the decision are dead.

On a lighthearted note, though, Europe created America, the worlds biggest problem of all.

	12-02-2002 00:36									#10
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That said, Europe's mistakes lie in the past. America's mistakes are happinging right this minute. You can argue all you want about what Spain has done to the Aztecs, but it won't change a thing. Instead of doing that you can argue and protest over the recent American foreign policy. The past can't be changed, but the future is still undeterment (my believes though).

	12-02-2002 00:38									#11
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we accept your apology and await your gold payments



No but really..the answer to my question is in India during the 1920's-40's (recent, yes. ancestors no) it was illegal to make your own clothes. It was even illegal to make salt and grow tea unless you were liscensed and illegal to brew tea that you made


the result was British companys Raked in Huge profits and Taxes on inflated prices for goods from these people and paid them little in labor costs (who were very poor anyway).


Talk about exploiting the poor, huh?

	12-02-2002 00:39									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Europe has made it's mistakes in the past, granted. We created the US after all. No seriously. Europe has made terrible mistakes, but I don't think we should be held accountable for what our distant ancestors did long before we were born. That still leaves some more recent mistakes, but in that regard European nations aren't any worse than, say, China or the USA. Furthermore, the US simply can't have caused as many problems as Europe, since it only exists for 200 years, and spend most of it's time building the country up.

Well, we made some pretty big mistakes too. But personally, I wouldn't have it any other way.

quote: Also, you use the term "Europe" way too broadly. Tell me the world problems caused by Luxembourgh or Sweden.

Good chocolate and expensive cars.

quote: However, as said, this lies (mostly) in the distant past, while America's mistakes lie in the not distant past and are happening right this minute.

Disagree, almost everything bad that happened this century is a direct result of European Imperialism, and the Great European Civil War (act 1). We can toss in American stupidity for the Marcos in the Phillippines, and Noriega in Panama, and to a much lesser degree, Pinochet.

quote: Though I deeply regret what my country, and my countries neighbours have done to the world in the centuries before I was born. All we can do now is try to heal those wounds, and make sure they won't happen again.

True, however over, it often seems as if Europe doesn't have the political will to do what needs doing. And, there is much critizing of the United States when (from our view) we do do what nbeeds doing.

	12-02-2002 00:42									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus That said, Europe's mistakes lie in the past. America's mistakes are happinging right this minute. You can argue all you want about what Spain has done to the Aztecs, but it won't change a thing. Instead of doing that you can argue and protest over the recent American foreign policy. The past can't be changed, but the future is still undeterment (my believes though).

No, you support Iran,a repressive regime

	12-02-2002 00:43									#14
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory No, you support Iran,a repressive regime

And Cuba!

	12-02-2002 00:46									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar And Cuba!

they seem to also have a thing with Saddam and Dae Jong..

tsk....tsk......

a mistake is a mistake. You shouldnt support people who starve there own citizens.

	12-02-2002 00:57									#16
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Ok, now this is just plain trolling. Just because we don't want to blast a country back to the Stone Age doesn't mean we support them.

Guess who I voted as biggest troll?

Last edited by Saint Marcus on 12-02-2002 at 01:09

	12-02-2002 01:05									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Ok, now this is just plain trolling. Just because we don't want to blast a country back to the Stone Age doesn't we support them. Guess who I voted as biggest troll?

Its a shame. I think you would feel differently if you were a north korean peasant.

	12-02-2002 01:23									#18
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quote: No but really..the answer to my question is in India during the 1920's-40's (recent, yes. ancestors no) it was illegal to make your own clothes. It was even illegal to make salt and grow tea unless you were liscensed and illegal to brew tea that you made

The civil servants behind this are almost certainly dead.
The governments behind the civil servants are changed, with a totally new membership, and new policies.
Furthermore, the demographic makeup of Britain has changed, and so have attitudes of the population and the rulers.

Stop flinging ancient muck about.
There's plenty of fresh stuff out there.

	12-02-2002 01:24									#19
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory related, Does anybody know why the spinning wheel is a symbol on the Indian flag?

Wheel of life. What goes down comes back up again, and what up goes back down again. Hindu symbol.

	12-02-2002 01:24									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Europe has made it's mistakes in the past, granted. We created the US after all.

Yeah, I think our greatest mistake was not leaving America to the Natives. And Britain sending the trouble makers over instead of beheading them in the tower. They shouldnīt have departed from a working tradition.

	12-02-2002 01:38									#21
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue True. I don't think you'll find any Euros here who will defend what happened during the colonial times.

Yes, I for one donīt put European imperialism over American. Itīs equally bad.

	12-02-2002 01:41									#22
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Finger-pointing is sign that a problem will most likely not be resolved.

	12-02-2002 01:41									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Yeah, I think our greatest mistake was not leaving America to the Natives. And Britain sending the trouble makers over instead of beheading them in the tower. They shouldnīt have departed from a working tradition.

lol. like you did in S.America and africa!

quote: Wheel of life. What goes down comes back up again, and what up goes back down again. Hindu symbol.

I dont know if thats true. But I watch a show on PBS about ghandi just yesterday. And it was put there as symbol of defiance. Ill find a link.

	12-02-2002 01:48									#24
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory I dont know if thats true. But I watch a show on PBS about ghandi just yesterday. And it was put there as symbol of defiance. Ill find a link.

Seems like there are a couple of explanations. http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/in.html

The first one they name is the one you probably mean, the Gandhian wheel of self sufficiency, from Gandhi's insistence that the Indian people should be able take care of themselves.

The second one further down is the one I said. The Ashoka Chakra, or the wheel of progress. All about karma and that sort of thing.

	12-02-2002 01:50									#25
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what europe did up till 19th C is, for the time, not to harsh (when you consider britain aboloshied slavery in 1830, the first country to do so). and what was done to the natives was nothing to what was done the the American Blacks till the 1960's (NINTEEN)

and look what the US did to the north american natives - wipped them out compltely. the British tried to stop this, hence the AAmerican war of independence.

	12-02-2002 02:03									#26
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This is quite clever really. Even the things that are America's fault are Europe's fault.
Europeans ----emigrate----> America

So are all America's acheivements ours too?

	12-02-2002 02:06									#27
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Can't we all just face facts?

Europe has caused problems in the past, and will continue to do so.
America has caused problems in the past, and will continue to do so.

These are, unfortunately, facts of life. Arguing about who's caused more problems is only going to create more problems. Both sides are to blame in some way or another.

	12-02-2002 02:10									#28
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What is this, really? Without Europe half of the world would live in Stone Age for all we know. The other cultures just didn't step out, develop superior technology and imperialist ideology. The fact is that Europe took over the world, the western culture has influenced mankind more than any other. You think world would be a better place if there hadn't been European imperialism at all? I believe that despite of all mistakes Europe has done the world is still better off with western way of life developed by Europe. Civilization as we know it is mostly western.

	12-02-2002 02:13									#29
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The point: All(read: most) of the world's advances are Europe's "fault" too

	12-02-2002 02:16									#30
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory No, you support Iran,a repressive regime

And you support Israel...