12-02-2002 01:59									#1
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Over the Past few nights I have been thinking, there is always two sides to every coin.

When I was young from about 9 onwards I would play War in the playground at school, I was fanasted by it. My Grand Fathers were both in the War in the New Zealand 1st Div that served in North Africa and Italy, they brought back pictures that amazed me, one of them brought a series called Images of War if anyone has seen them they will no what I mean. I always though I wanted there to be war, so people see how great it is, like nationalism, I wanted to join the army, and do fighting.. kill some dirty Germans (no offence please). Just the thought of it was cool and exciting.

After my early years I started reading about the holocaust and POWs being shot even after they surrender which is not honourable, but they had to do it to keep moving or on orders, or racial hatred. I went this period thinking this is not War its what monsters do not real men, soldiers of war, they are honourable.

As i am nearly 20 now I relize War is good and bad, mostly bad, but good in the fact that it lowers the population, but that it turn destroys your country or surronding ones. America has been very lucky never to be invading ever be hostile forces. For that they destroy other countries for the security of the World, which they must be in charge of? I always thought the Untied Nations was. I always respected the Waffen SS for the determation and fanatical fighting against all odds and brought more casualties to the Allies than anything esle.

Now War is bad, but has it ever been good? We kill brothers son, fathers and for what land? money? peace? I know you need to sacifice lives to save lives, for peace, so how come after all the lives lost there is no peace left, will we have to sacifice more and more?

I just want to know, us playing War Games and even Civ, are we glorifying War so when Kids grow up they wanna kill Germans or Arabs, because thats what they did in the Game, if not that maybe grow up with a racial hatred which the United Nations is trying to stop!?

In a final statement i'd just like to say from a quote i thought up:-
"But maybe there is something about what the Germans did, that exercizes a deadly fascination over us - something that opens the catacombs of the imagination that created the SS and wants us to make a SS of today" -Richards

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	12-02-2002 02:20									#2
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Something about this post worries me quite a lot, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

	12-02-2002 03:12									#3
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I have to agree, Paul. While there is nothing wrong in understanding-even having a minute bit of respect for- the Waffen SS, who did fight in overwhelming odds, the negatives of the SS-Death Camps, the Einsatzgruppen (sp?), liqudation of several nationalities, religious groups and others greatly overshadows whatever they did on the field of battle...

FM Pilsudski
Savior of the Polish Nation

	12-02-2002 03:13									#4
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Well, I don't want to take part in a lengthy debate, but just to share a few (personal) thoughts :

For me, war can't be anything glamourous (even if as a child I had the same fascination you did, Soundwave!! It must come from Hollywood or something...), because it's exactly what you wrote: killing brothers, fathers, sons, and even women and children (and please don't talk about "surgical strikes" delivered by B-52: it would be ridiculous if it wasn't so tragical...)!!!

BUT... sometimes you have to do something!! You can't just hope for the other guy to be nice, because there are bastards (in every country, not only in those you or me might see as enemy) that have to be stopped!! The only problem is knowing when to start, and even more when to stop!! And it's always difficult not to paint everything in Black & White, because you can always be sure there will be some honorable people on the other side as well, and some b***stards on yours!!


Not about what a game like Civ or any Wargames will have as an influence, it's not that easy... You can see it as a way to prepare people to seeing others as enemies ready to be destroyed, or as a "safety valve" helping to let off steam and so not getting a violent fascist in real life (what, is not Civing "real life"?? ). Actually I think it's not games like Civ that would do much, but rather more Education... Which would launch a debate in which I want even less to be caught than this one...

Sorry if I wasn't very clear about what I meant, but my english...

By the way, Soundwave, I would have prefered your post without the attachment... Not that I'm offended (quite difficult to achieve!!), but I'm not really sure what you meant with it

	12-02-2002 03:15									#5
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I think soundwave must have attended the wrong kinds of school. But I don't know what they teach in American scholls, colleges or universities. But something there has gone terribly wrong. Perhaps you should pay a visit to some German Museums and former Camps in Germany or Poland. You won't find a sinlge human being that will be able to name you a good war. Perhaps America and its people have not yet realised what war really means...

Showing those kind of symbols if prohibited by law by the way over here. Naivity and dumbness never seems to die...

[Edit] The is no peace because every war that is fought will cause a new war and new suffering. History is full of those examples. Take a history book and name one good war. There aren't any.

	12-02-2002 03:23									#6
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The problem with America and racism is that anything that the education system does in the positive, outside culture cancels out with the negative. I currently live in Alabama, in the deep South,
and there are MANY people here who wish we were still in the days of seperate lunch counters and restrooms for "Negroes."
BTW, we do have a problem with a racist symbol almost as bad as the swastika-the "Stars and Bars" flag of the Confederacy.
Problem is, lots of people still want it to fly over state goverment offices, etc. Unlike in Europe, where the swastika is the ultimate symbol of evil to pretty much everyone, many over here want to keep the Sats and Bars flying as a historical symbol.

FM Pilsudski
Savior of the Polish nation

	12-02-2002 10:18									#7
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I agree with you Pilsudski, having grown up in Virginia, I still have a memory from elementary school I'm 20 now) where a white kid called a kid in our class who was black "The N word" Now the kid was duly punished and everything, but what got me most was what the teacher said as she pulled the kid past my desk: "White people can be niggers too." That's I dunno...just bizarre to me.

I used to have a more ambiguous view of the battleflag, thinking the arguements that it was praising states-rights and all that stuff was valid. That was until I gave it serious thought and realized that first of all it offended many people, so that's no good, the heritage is of a "nation" that openly rebelled against the US and split apart solely as a result of slavery somewhat tied to the issue of state's rights. So that ended that for me. Although the Civil War itself is very interesting...Just that some event could tear apart the nation so much, it's just, I don't know.

Still, I'm still amazed at how far a lot of things have come in the South since I was growing up, it seems to be a much more multi-cultural tolerant place, while still clinging to it's nonconfederate sort of individual liberty mindset. Although I've never really been to the deep south.

But I digress...

I never thought of Soundwave as an American. Maybe it's just the rushedness of his speech. Anyway, I don't think his feelings are a result of an sort of education. First of all, I don't think our education system itself makes too much of a lasting impression on anyone who goes through it. But there is something, I don't know whether it's hollywood, or the confederate reverance or the ku klux klan, but something leads us to a fascination with WWII and Nazis. WWII is remembered as the good war to most, if not nearly all Americans. Maybe it's even Vietnam that leads (some of) us to that.

As opposed to the national shame, that I hear about in reference to Germany and the holocaust, we have a sense of national greatness that leads to thinking our country never did, never can, and never will do any wrong, which is completely antithetical to democracy and liberty.

Although, I don't agree with you about war always being negative. Some are just necessary, and they're usually caused by events bigger than any one person. I'd say the American revolution would be the example or a good war. Actually, most national liberation wars would be for a better good. As is our civil war, while I would agree that the southern states had a right to leave the union, I think the overall war was fought for good goals, although the postwar period did much to erode the victories. Also I think that just because war is bad doesn't mean one should roll over if another tries to trample over them or endanger them, this is my rationale for the "goodness" of the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War and the Allies in WWII. I'm sure you have a different point of view on this, and I'm sure I'd generally agree with you, I'm just saying it's not absolute that war is inherently evil

*whew*

	12-02-2002 14:26									#8
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A comment about the confederate battle flag;

First, a personal disclaimer. I reside in Oklahoma. during the American Civil War, the only people fighting in Oklahoma were the Choctaws and Cherokees, and they were not fighting each other, but rival factions within their own tribes. I have no loyalties to either north/Union or south/confederacy.

However;

The confederacy was only doing precisely what the 13 colonies had done scarcely 90 some odd years earlier. The southern states declared themselves independent of a government they collectively found unacceptable (not to mention "foreign"). Although the issues at the heart of the conflict were different, the principle of rebellion against perceived tyranny was strikingly similar. In the 1770s, the rebellion succeeded, and a new nation was created. In the 1860s, the rebellion failed, and no new state came into being.

Now I'm going to predict that someone will answer this by completely ignoring my statement above about "different issues," and carp on about slavery-is-evil by way of a reply. Please try not to do that and stick to the principle mentioned--the legitimacy of rebellion. I think we can all agree that slavery is bad. Fine. Ok. But the real point is; can we condemn the southern states for the war, and, if we do, then we must also condemn the 13 colonies as well. There is an historical double standard here that few people like to address.

The confederate battle flag is not exclusively a symbol of hatred and racism. It is also a symbol of a (failed) national rebellion and spirit of independence. A comparison of the Confederate battle flag and the SchutzStaffel emblem is not valid; Apples and oranges--two different things.

Exile

	12-02-2002 20:01									#9
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Why is this being discussed in the Scenario League?

	12-02-2002 20:08									#10
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I find it interesting that the end quote in soundwave's post is the same as the one in his sig...sans one phrase:

quote: soundwave's Sig."But maybe there is something about what the Germans did, that exercizes a deadly fascination over us - something that opens the catacombs of the imagination that created the SS" -Richards

quote: soundwave's end quote."But maybe there is something about what the Germans did, that exercizes a deadly fascination over us - something that opens the catacombs of the imagination that created the SS and wants us to make a SS of today" -Richards

What exactly is the point of this thread though? Soundwave's dicovery that war is 'good' because it reduces population? Strange. War sucks, it shouldnt happen, I just like to play video games. Thats all.

-FMK.

	12-02-2002 20:26									#11
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Upon reading Soundwave's first post I wondering if this boys head was screwed on right. Now I have a very strong premonition that it isn't. War is never a good thing but is a necassary evil. Soundwave is entitled to his opinion just so long as he doesn't start trying to tell us that his opinion is the right opinion. This is not the place to discuss it though and this thread should be closed.

	12-02-2002 21:33									#12
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I agree with Jimmywax. There is no good war. Sometimes it may be an unavoidable necessity. But it is still no good war. People die, it doens't matter on who's side, so it is bad and it will cause suffering. That's all there is to it. Truly, some may gain a profit from war, be it liberty, independence or the acces to oil and other resources. It's still wrong...

That's all I'm going to say to this.

	12-02-2002 21:56									#13
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Fight war, not wars!

	12-02-2002 23:57									#14
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I was in Kashmir this summer, near Indian/Pakistan control line. And I know now many people from there. Simple, good people who want to live their ordinary life. Politicians far away in Delhi and Islamabad could argue about territories, history and ideology but for these people the possibility of next Indian-Pakistan war was terrible.

	13-02-2002 01:22									#15
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war sucks, and is not a necessary evil

don´t like soundwave´s post

	13-02-2002 03:55									#16
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To throw in a last punch....

quote: Originally posted by Hendrik the Great Showing those kind of symbols if prohibited by law by the way over here. Naivity and dumbness never seems to die...

Actually, I find your German law about the swastika and other Nazi symbols stupid. Why ban it? Don't you have laws protecting free speech? In this country, the US, we tolerate these things because they fit under free speech. Now, don't get me wrong, I hate Nazis, but banning the symbols? Are those symbols banned from TV and books? If so, this is completely revisionism and I don't like it. You can't deny what has happened in the past and try to cover it up. Also if the swastika is banned, shouldn't the sickle and hammer on a red backdrop be banned? The Communists killed many more people than the Nazis did, but they just didn't target a specific ethnic group: they targeted all threats.

Also about the Confederate Flag: If you feel so strongly about the slavery symbolism in it, why don't you ban the Stars and Stripes as well? It flew over slavery and condoned it as well. That's paradoxical. Also, as Exile said, they support it for different reasons.

	13-02-2002 04:33									#17
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Moved to where it belongs - In the OT.

If Ming of ML want to close it, that's up to them. I don't want this kind of discussion in SLeague.

	13-02-2002 04:36									#18
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I'd just like to point out that SuperSneak is in no way associated with SS rat bastards.


Thank you very much.

	13-02-2002 04:39									#19
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Thanks Ryan.

	13-02-2002 04:41									#20
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quote: Originally posted by WarVoid Moved to where it belongs - In the OT. If Ming of ML want to close it, that's up to them. I don't want this kind of discussion in SLeague.

Thanks for moving it to where it belongs... Only time will tell if this thread will remain open, as is the case with all threads

	13-02-2002 04:42									#21
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I agree with Exile and ANZAC. I dont know why americans focus so much on the confederate flag as a symbol of slavery. They just dont like southerners I suppose...

	13-02-2002 04:45									#22
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Isn't that symbol illegal in Germany now? What happens if a German poster reads this text and an alarm bell goes off in the German Internal Intelligence Building, and he has the black helicopters swooping down on him.

On the other hand, anyone glorifying anything by the SS doesn't realise what they were. If you want to go military divisions who fought against overwhelming odds, there are better choices.

	13-02-2002 04:47									#23
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Symbols have no inherent power, so why ban them?

	13-02-2002 04:51									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Symbols have no inherent power, so why ban them?

I'm pretty sure the nazi swastika and the SS lightning symbols are banned in Germany. They have censored versions of Wolfenstein and that sort of thing. I think it is because it is still fairly sensitive over there.

	13-02-2002 05:49									#25
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quote: Originally posted by The ANZAC Now, don't get me wrong, I hate Nazis, but banning the symbols? Are those symbols banned from TV and books? If so, this is completely revisionism and I don't like it. You can't deny what has happened in the past and try to cover it up.

The Germans seem to have done a better job in dealing with their past than the Japanese. If you read a Japanese history book, WWII is all but a side note. They all but deny that it ever happened and are only recently being held accountable for their attrocities.

	13-02-2002 08:11									#26
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Well I thought i better put in my two cents, i wrote the topic at the start of this thread as a thought, not as a bedate, my head is screwed on right, and i'm a New Zealander as i said. I was trying to say war is good and bad well thats what i always thought now, i know war is not good, but you still have to fight it to maintain the peace of the World, which i would love to see, but you can't... 'man will always be man'. I am not a racist and acknowledge the holocaust and the SS involvement. All i was saying is i love the though of honour of fighting so bravely, like the British in Battles like the Charge of the Light Brigade, and the Battle of the movie Zulu (i think, it was someones farm??). I like that Waffen SS combat units, i do not like what they did, they could have said no, but fear of being shot or disobeying hitler or the mean which the wanted to do it i dont know...

I just know the some of them were good and some were Bast*rds like everyone has in there Armed Forces, no one is different in that.

I will glorify anything i want thank you its a free world thanks to democrarcy.

No those symbols are not illegal, not in my country anyways, i dear say when you start banning symbols does that epoch on your freedom of speech i dont know i dont know the america constitution.

Well look guys this was just a thought or opinion. I'm glad the Allies won the war.. even though they got a run for there money...

And i always feel great saddness as people wrote in the paper, that we fought the war so young ppl can smoke and drink and take drugs, nice aye!!??

Oh heres a quote outta my history book...

When you go home
Tell them of us and say
For your tomorrow
We gave our today.

Inscription on the British 2nd Division Memorial at Kohmia

	13-02-2002 08:14									#27
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Man has killed man from the beginning of time, and each new frontier
has brought new ways and new places to die. Why should the future
be different?

-- Col. Corazon Santiago,
"Planet: A Survivalist's Guide" From SMAC

	13-02-2002 08:26									#28
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Exactly!!

	13-02-2002 08:33									#29
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"I dont know why americans focus so much on the confederate flag as a symbol of slavery. They just dont like southerners I suppose..."

[ignorant]And I don't know why humanity focuses so much on the Nazi flag as a symbol of hate. They just don't like nazis I suppose...[/ignorant]

Seriously, do you think we organized this whole thing cause us uptight Northern wasps were getting annoyed by those raucous and magnificent southern balls? Do you think that we WANTED to destroy half of the country to save it?

The Confederate flag is a symbol of slavery. The Southerners were fighting for their right to own slaves, and the confederate flag was their symbol. Therefore the confederate flag was a symbol of the right to own slaves.

	13-02-2002 08:35									#30
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ahh **** u


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