12-02-2002 19:34									#1
	cultural takeover - what happens to my units Got spare money?

I took over a russian city and put about a dozen tanks and half a dozen infantry fortified in the city however it was right beside moscow the captial and after three turns the city desposed of my gov't and went back to being russian. What happens to all my units I had in the city??

	12-02-2002 19:40									#2
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They're gone forever, I'm afraid. This has been the cause of great anguish to some players, and some have even gone as far as uninstalling the game because of it. I just don't put very many units in captured cities.

	12-02-2002 20:23									#3
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In the "culture flipping exposed" thread, it is mentioned that the number or strength of your forces in a given city does not play a significant part in culture reversion calculations.

In other words, it does not pay off to garrison a city with half your military, if your goal with this is to prevent conversion.

When in war, I usually try to bring obsolete units along for garrison duty. That way I will not lose valuable units if a captured city reverts, but I still get the small bonus for units in city when the game does its culture reversion calculations.

The only times I am nervous is when I have to let my best attack units rest in a newly taken city

	13-02-2002 01:29									#4
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That is why culture-flipping should be banned.

	13-02-2002 01:58									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Patience The only times I am nervous is when I have to let my best attack units rest in a newly taken city

A unit will need at most 4 turns to heal outside a city. Civ III rewards you for having a really massive attack force: while the units from your first wave are recovering, the second (and third, and fourth) wave carries on the onslaught.

	13-02-2002 04:10									#6
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i think the units should not be killed, but rather sent back to your capital or something.

	13-02-2002 07:32									#7
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Or maybe 1 or 2 units could be killed in the revolt, with the rest expelled to outside the city borders. Or all units could be expelled to outside borders, but they take some damage in the revolt.

I like to bombard cities down below size 6 before I capture, so that a reasonable force can subdue the resistance, without fear of losing them all. If it's a size 24 to start with, then several turns may be required. I also like to give my obsolete units the garrison task and keep my good troops outside in case there is another flip. Eventually they learn that resistance is futile.

I don't know if there is a limit to the number of flips a city can make, but I think I have seen the same city flip twice. When taking over a bunch of cities near enemy capital, (conquering wave), I try to chase their capital away from recently captured cities to prevent more flips.

The best flip experience was when one of my native coastal cities (~ size 10) flipped to Chancellor Bismarck, but he didn't want it, so I got it back! I think that taught them a good lesson, but I rush bought them a cathedral, just in case.

	14-02-2002 00:33									#8
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You could always go for the total war approach (which has mentioned in other threads). Keep several settlers in reserve. When you capture a city, burn it to the ground and then move your settler in to replace it.

If you preserved even half of the terrain improvements the previous city had, it will grow rather quickly, and all the citizens will be yours. Just make sure you build quickly, especially if land is scarce. Otherwise the other AI will move in and build there.

	14-02-2002 13:31									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Patience In other words, it does not pay off to garrison a city with half your military, if your goal with this is to prevent conversion.

This should be fixed with the new patch (due for release today), where you can garrison a city, with at least as many troops as citizens, and totally prevent cultural conversion.

	14-02-2002 15:52									#10
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Hopefully they will let us know exactly how many are necessary to prevent cultural defection. 1 per pop point?? 2?? 10 units per city??

Whatever it is, they should let us know so we can actually use some strategy rather than "guesstimation"

	14-02-2002 18:53									#11
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According to the readme, it's 1 unit per pop point.

	14-02-2002 21:54									#12
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The thing about culture flipping is that it's easy to prevent in *this* version of the game.

To take the example that started this thread, you had ten tanks in a city, right next to the capital. What were those tanks doing sitting in that city?

My next move would be to *immediately* move into the capital, taking it over. This would almost obliterate the risk of cultural defection.

Also, have you been ignoring culture at home? This is how I imagine cultural defection works in the case of a massive military force.

Your culture is weak; their culture is strong (they have great wen, you have little wen). Your military guys rush into the city, kill and rape and loot (since, in the case of attacking a culturally more developed civilization, your pool of potential military recruits is likely a bunch of worthless mother killers, and not virtuous professional soldiers). Then they settle in for garrison and head busting duty.

Slowly, they begin to partake of the great culture of this city, and come to admire the culture of the area. Some of them take interest in the other guy's rich history and philosophy. Others take local girls for wives. Still others might actually join the other guy's religion. Some remain loyal to you, but a split begins to develop.

The key thing to remember is that *none* of these guys joined because of a great love of the ideals they were fighting for. If they were that sort, well, they'd be working for the other guy. Some of them are mercenaries working for pay. Others are just layabouts with nothing better to do than loot. But, well, many of us older posters know the "civilizing" influence a good woman can have on a man. Old men with cool stories are almost as good.

The locals, of course, desperately want to be back under the rule of their beloved ruler (as opposed to the barbarian that rules over them now). This begins to infect some of the men. When the revolt breaks out, no longer are the lines drawn in terms of military units and foreign population. Now, it's just man, against man, against man. Probably a good portion of the revolting force are actually men who once fought under your banner.The others either die in battle, or slink away in shame. All desert your banner.

	15-02-2002 05:17									#13
	Got spare money?

"Virtuous professional soldiers?" I was never called that.

In this particular situation, it appears that temacc was too close to the enemy capital, where tremendous cultural influence is centered. I've had so many capitals flip more than once in a short time that I no longer let them survive (unless they have a wonder I absolutely must have, and that's almost never). The cities near the capital are also high in culture because they are the oldest cities in that country. If you capture one like that, just keep one unit in it. If it flips, raze it on the next turn. Keep in mind that it can also flip later, after the war is over, unless you completely destroy that civ.

	17-02-2002 09:14									#14
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Yes, I have had a postwar cultural defection, once. It was really odd. One minute, I'm rushbuying all kinds of cultural improvements into the city of Babylon (I was playing the Chinese, and had removed the Babylonians from my continent, the only one on a tiny planet), the next minute, they rebel and rejoin the Babylonians! There wasn't a single adjacent Babylonian cultural border; the nearest Babylonian city was an island a good four squares offshore.

It was annoying, but I just sent riders south, to retake it. Declared war, finished them, finished everyone else, finished the game.

	17-02-2002 22:18									#15
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well , you could prevent this , by putting one unit in town , or two , and put some units around the city , and if the city needs more "ground" put them on the land that they need , of course , this could mean war , but not allways ! , also , keep some workers ready , and let them join the city , that will do a lot


have a nice day

	18-02-2002 06:21									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Purest Warrior This should be fixed with the new patch (due for release today), where you can garrison a city, with at least as many troops as citizens, and totally prevent cultural conversion.

I'm afraid the patch doesn't fix it. I had 10 archers in a size one city on deity level, and it flipped back to the zulus (they only had three cities at the time vs. my 12 too)

	18-02-2002 13:39									#17
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quote: Originally posted by DrFell I'm afraid the patch doesn't fix it. I had 10 archers in a size one city on deity level, and it flipped back to the zulus (they only had three cities at the time vs. my 12 too)

Checked the readme again and it says that it is now possible to completely suppress a city's cultural reversion with enough military units.

So it's not necessariliy on one-to-one basis...ahem, like someone said. Sorry, for the misinformation.

	18-02-2002 13:53									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Purest Warrior Checked the readme again and it says that it is now possible to completely suppress a city's cultural reversion with enough military units. So it's not necessariliy on one-to-one basis...ahem, like someone said. Sorry, for the misinformation.

When Soren was asked how many units were required, he indicated that it's around 2 units per 1 population.

	18-02-2002 14:09									#19
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Who is Soren?

	18-02-2002 16:09									#20
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So, is it reasonable to think that a garrison can now somewhat substitute for culture-builds? (in the 1.17f build)

I'm just thinking that it can prevent reversion both ways, so one of your cities near enemy borders can benefit culturally from a larger garrison, not by adding culture but negating enemy culture.

If this is the case, it could help game-balance. I've lost cities to culture when I focus on military and lost cities to military when I culture-rush improvements. This way, you can maybe balance both better.

	18-02-2002 16:31									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Purest Warrior Who is Soren?

That'd be Soren Johnsen of Firaxis, the head AI programmer on Civ3. He's the man to ask about all these AI questions!