13-02-2002 09:52									#1
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quote: "In the guise of a ‘trial’ you aim to justify your crimes!" President Slobodan Milosevic at The Hague 'Tribunal,' 9 January 2002 [posted 11 January 2002] =================================/====== [Note: The entire text has been translated from Serbo-Croatian. It is therefore possible that Richard May's words may differ slightly from the original English.] Richard May: …Mr. Milosevic, you have heard what I said. Is there anything else you would like to say in connection with your trial and what has been said today? President Slobodan Milosevic: "To be precise, concerning what has been said today: almost everything we’ve heard shows that, in the guise of having a trial, what is planned here is to carry out an operation to reverse scene and culprit. This is aimed at producing a fabricated justification for the crimes committed during the NATO aggression against my country and my people. Indeed, this ‘indictment’ itself constitutes one of the proofs that what I affirm is true. Because all the so-called misdeeds supposedly committed by the armed forces of Yugoslavia, which I had the honor to command, are, according to the ‘indictment,’ supposed to have occurred during precisely the time of the NATO aggression against my country. The intention is obviously to portray those who defended their families, children, thresholds, homes and homeland as villains, criminals. evil people. Whereas those who traveled thousands of kilometers to destroy those homes in the night, to kill innocent people, to destroy maternity wards, hospitals bridges, railways, trains, who collaborated with the Albanian terrorists – that those people, responsible for a huge number of victims and enormous material damage, are good, are correct, and should have the support of international public opinion. To compound this absurdity… (microphone turned off) Richard May: Mr. Milosevic, I have already explained how this trial will be conducted. You will have the opportunity to give your defense in the way I have described. But now is not the time for that. It is not the time for speeches. Our concern now is for the form of the trial and the proceedings. Would you like to say something concerning that? As I have said you will have the opportunity to state your defense when the trial begins. That will be the right time to do it, not now. We haven’t gotten into the essence of the trial. Do you wish to say something concerning the procedure? President Slobodan Milosevic: Well, this isn’t the first time I haven’t been allowed to speak, but I have to say - if you will … (microphone turned off) Richard May: You will have the opportunity to speak and will be allowed to speak at the proper time, during the trial. As I told you, this is not the right time. We are now concerned with procedural matters. So, you have to limit your remarks to that, and when the trial begins, as I have said, the time will come for you to make your statements. You can do that and expound your defense. Please, do you wish to say something concerning procedure or not? President Slobodan Milosevic: I want to confirm that you have not offered a single argument in response to the very clear legal facts I have presented regarding the illegality of this ‘court’, established by a resolution of a Security Council that has no legislative nor judiciary power and that could hardly transfer prerogatives it does not have, since as lawyers you very well know that a right which one does not posses cannot be transferred. In any case. (… microphone turned off) Richard May: Mr. Milosevic, we have already made a decision regarding that question and it is no longer an issue up for debate. Do you wish to say something else regarding the procedure or shall we finish? President Slobodan Milosevic: Well, if you’re going to limit the questions I can raise, then regarding the procedure I would say the following: according to the natural definition, which applies to any court, it must be neutral and impartial. And look at this ‘court’: the indictment is based on allegations provided by the English Intelligence Service; the judge is English; the prosecutor is English; the Amicus Curiae is English; and I… (microphone turned off) Richard May: Mr. Milosevic, we have listened to you patiently and we are listening to you patiently. Several times you have been told that this hearing deals with procedural matters only. You will have the opportunity to state your defense during your trial and to give all the statements you want. Now is not the time for that. This hearing is adjourned. Please rise.

hey judge you're a piece of...(microphone turned off)

	13-02-2002 10:48									#2
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I'd be very happy if some of those Serbian "terrorists" found some way to attack the ****ing World Court.

****ers think they have the moral authority to judge foreign nationals who don't recognize their authority. Guess what? They don't. Guess what else? This is another case of "might makes right", just like Versailles, Nuremburg, the US intentionally bombing civilians in WW2, Lend-Lease, economic interference with foreign affairs in the Persian Gulf, the State of Israel, the invasion of the CSA by the USA, etc., etc., etc.

	13-02-2002 11:11									#3
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In my opinion, might makes fact. Wheither or not might makes right is up to debate.


I think putting this man on trial will eventually backfire on the western world. But it won't as long as they maintain some kind of edge in international relations. But woe to the first western nation that is ever beaten.

	13-02-2002 11:33									#4
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I'd be very happy if some of those Serbian "terrorists" found some way to attack the ****ing World Court.

I actually agree with David on this one point. This really is a farce of a trial considering that the Serbian people are the only ones with the authority to try him for his crimes and that the NATO intervention that precipitated them man's downfall was illegal on its face.

	14-02-2002 06:22									#5
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Whoa. Dino and I agree on something

	14-02-2002 06:31									#6
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Oh, I don't know. I quite like the idea of evil murdering bastards getting some form of justice.

	14-02-2002 06:37									#7
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So the end justifies the means, does it?

	14-02-2002 06:42									#8
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Well, is it OK to get away with murder if you happen to be a head of state?

	14-02-2002 06:44									#9
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Has this thread turned into Jeopardy?

	14-02-2002 07:00									#10
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I smell american spirit in here...

So the worse thing is that we have a "UN communist" look-a-like World court? And not that Slobo is a massmurdering-ethnic-genocidical-cleanser?

You have to be american to have such an anti-rest-of-the-world-arrogant attitude.

This stinks to hi heaven big time!

	14-02-2002 08:09									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Lars-E You have to be american to have such an anti-rest-of-the-world-arrogant attitude.

Paiktis is Greek.

	14-02-2002 08:29									#12
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Ok, lets complain about the (judge? mediator?) turning off his microphone for him not answering the question but going completely off on a tangent! Let's totally forget that we are dealing with a mass-****ing-murder who deserves to die a slow, painful death. Let's ***** and moan for "sticking our nose in other countries' business," which, if we did, Milo would STILL be in power and STILL killing his people.

Just have to have something to complain about, don't you?

	14-02-2002 08:32									#13
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Let's ***** and moan for "sticking our nose in other countries' business," which, if we did, Milo would STILL be in power and STILL killing his people.

We gained nothing of import from what I've seen from changing the leadership in Belgrade, so I fail to see the reason for the action.

	14-02-2002 08:33									#14
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"Guess what? They don't."

Guess what? We have him, so we do.

"This is another case of "might makes right" "

Congradulations! You have just grasped a key lesson of international politics!

Now, I don't think we can go around screwing people over. But I don't think mass-murderers can exepect to hide behind soverignty.

"This really is a farce of a trial considering that the Serbian people are the only ones with the authority to try him for his"

Come now, you are a realist. So why doesn't us having him give him the right do what we please with him.


I personally believe the development of international courts is a positive development in the international system. No longer can tyrants commit horrid crimes agaisnt their own people and expect to get away with it. The hard-core definition of soverignty some people have is largely a result of the treaty of Westphalia in 1648. There is no reason why in the 21st century we must cling to its strict standards.

	14-02-2002 08:37									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Come now, you are a realist. So why doesn't us having him give him the right do what we please with him.

See my post just before yours.

	14-02-2002 08:44									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Lars-E I smell american spirit in here... So the worse thing is that we have a "UN communist" look-a-like World court? And not that Slobo is a massmurdering-ethnic-genocidical-cleanser? You have to be american to have such an anti-rest-of-the-world-arrogant attitude. This stinks to hi heaven big time!

Lars, you are in error. See the other thread on this same topic where I make some excellent points.

	14-02-2002 08:45									#17
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc We gained nothing of import from what I've seen from changing the leadership in Belgrade, so I fail to see the reason for the action.

Debatable. For one, the action helped to increase US prestige-- particularlly this action helps rebut criticisms we are anti-moslem because we helped Moslems. Milosevich was seen by many US policymakers as a destabilizing force in the region. Milosevich was a socialist, something which the US wishes to destroy. It gave us a chance to find common ground with our European allies who we had been drifiting apart from. It gave us a nice chance to test our weapons.

But even if you believe it was not in US interests to carry out the bombing, now that we have him I can't see your objection in going ahead and trying him. What would be the point now of releasing him?

	14-02-2002 08:55									#18
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He's being indicted for Kosovo. That's in his own damn country. The UN can bugger off.

	14-02-2002 09:07									#19
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd The UN can bugger off.

Or, to phrase it legally: The Security Council doesn´t have, and never had, the right to appoint any courts.

Therefore, this court does not legally exist.

	14-02-2002 09:16									#20
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Or international courts and/or bodies have no rights to interfere with the affairs of sovereign nations. That includes Nuremburg.

I like that one better.

	14-02-2002 09:55									#21
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Or international courts and/or bodies have no rights to interfere with the affairs of sovereign nations. That includes Nuremburg. I like that one better.

Yeah. Damn Brits, Americans, and French for endeavoring to ensure that those murdering sunza*****es got theirs!

	14-02-2002 10:07									#22
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Those "murdering sunza*****es" (which I grant they were) violated no international laws they agreed to or any national laws.

	14-02-2002 10:20									#23
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Those "murdering sunza*****es" (which I grant they were) violated no international laws they agreed to or any national laws.

Last time I checked, the Geneva Convention was in effect during WW2. Less I'm more wrong than usual.

	14-02-2002 10:25									#24
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But if Germany didn't recognize the Geneva Convention - and I'm fairly certain the Nazis didn't - then it wouldn't apply to them.

	14-02-2002 10:33									#25
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd But if Germany didn't recognize the Geneva Convention - and I'm fairly certain the Nazis didn't - then it wouldn't apply to them.

They certainly didn't adhere to the GC, in spirit or letter, but they did recognize it. (In fact, more than once Goebbels put out films decrying the Soviet's for not adhering to it. )

	14-02-2002 16:06									#26
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If international law allows the purposeful slaughter of innocent civilians with no chance of justice for the perpetrators, indeed has no provision for justice for the perpetrators, then I'd say it needs a few changes.

The concept of enforceable standards of basic human rights that transcend national boundaries is a new and evolving one, and our first steps in that direction will necessarily be imperfect.

	14-02-2002 16:55									#27
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Unfortunately I think that international law is overstepping it's bounds vis it's ability to enforce the law. Only the weak are subject to it, and the fact that it is based entirely on western principles of morality, law and justice don't do much to endear it to the rest of the world. I certainly don't cry for Milosevich, but he's the exception rather than the rule. These courts will never have the acceptance of the world until they are backed by a world government which will obviate the need for them in the first place.

	14-02-2002 17:06									#28
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I actually agree with David on this one point. This really is a farce of a trial considering that the Serbian people are the only ones with the authority to try him for his crimes and that the NATO intervention that precipitated them man's downfall was illegal on its face.

1. War crimes, genocide etc are matters of universal jurisdiction.
2. Whether the UN SC can create a court and endow it with such jurisdiction can be debated, but under the broad phrasing of the UN statute I'd tend to say yes.
3. Serbia's government extradited Milosevic. This may have been a violation of Yugoslavia's federal constitution, but this constitution does not take precedence over international law.
4. Whether NATO intervention was illegal... we could do a nice debate about that and about the concepts of self determination and sovereignty, but it is irrelevant here. First the link between his fall and NATO action is questionable, second there is no fruit of the poisoned tree doctrine equivalent that would render Milosevic being held at the Hague illegal.

So legally you won't get much mileage out of the "farce" argument.

	14-02-2002 17:09									#29
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does anyone here can even imagine a situation in which Milosevic is not found guilty ? ( I am not talking about whether he's guilty or not , but the court's desicion )

if such a thing would happen , would you take all your words about milosevic back?

	14-02-2002 17:10									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Unfortunately I think that international law is overstepping it's bounds vis it's ability to enforce the law. Only the weak are subject to it, and the fact that it is based entirely on western principles of morality, law and justice don't do much to endear it to the rest of the world.

Only the weak are subject to what exactly ?