14-02-2002 01:09									#31
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quote: What was the old squence? What was so bad about it?

It was quite random, yanking you all over the map. It was impossible to conduct a battle campaign or order worker detail without constant and persistent interruptions in your train of thought.

If this is indeed fixed, it represents a monumental interface improvement.

	14-02-2002 01:14									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Libertarian It was quite random, yanking you all over the map. It was impossible to conduct a battle campaign or order worker detail without constant and persistent interruptions in your train of thought. If this is indeed fixed, it represents a monumental interface improvement.

Since I haven't played Civ3 since a few days after the first patch was released, I had forgotten about that annoying aspect. Not being able to stack workers also made me forget that annoyance too.

But this is indeed promising, if they keep the sequence to the region of the units before moving to a new "area" instead of jumping around.

	14-02-2002 01:16									#33
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Exactly. It needs first to exhaust a stack, and then activate units sequentially on the proximate stacks, etc., thus allowing you to complete your activities one theater at a time.

	14-02-2002 01:18									#34
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Lib, actually I read those when they were three pages long, so I didn't see what came after that. I do recall the one (forgot by whom) what kept updating the first post as new suggestions came in. As a software manager, all I care about is a list of problems to be fixed and stuff to be changed or added. I don't care how one "feels" about them, just state it accurately. But then again, we've gone round and round on this before, haven't we?

	14-02-2002 01:20									#35
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Apparently not, because I don't disagree with what you just posted.

	14-02-2002 01:21									#36
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just wondering, why is it 1.17b (not f)?

imo a good patch

	14-02-2002 01:28									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Hagbart just wondering, why is it 1.17b (not f)? imo a good patch

I think b=beta (the one the testers got)

	14-02-2002 01:32									#38
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Stack movement and improved activation sequence are the hit, no doubt. But haven't seen the "killing last AI ship with settler crashes game" bug being fixed... did I miss that?

	14-02-2002 01:36									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Stack movement and improved activation sequence are the hit, no doubt. But haven't seen the "killing last AI ship with settler crashes game" bug being fixed... did I miss that?

Shouldn't that have been dfixed in version 1.16f?

	14-02-2002 01:37									#40
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No fix for the AI tech trading bug? Or did I miss it?

	14-02-2002 01:41									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Libertarian The ones who feel silly are those who turned a blind eye to the game's faults. The ones who are vindicated are the ones who insisted on the changes that were made.

You are going to take credit for the work they did?



You kill me.


Back on topic. - Sentry mode - Drop shadows - CSU upgradable - Stacks - etc.

Everything looks promising. I'm sure the whiners will find something to whine about though.

	14-02-2002 01:42									#42
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I'm...tentatively hopeful... It really looks pretty good! Tho it does sadden me to see that there's only one addition to the editor, and a relatively minor one at that. The Mod-With-No-Name then, will sit on ice a bit longer.

But I will be reinstalling the game to see how this new patch changes/improves things!



-=Vel=-

	14-02-2002 01:47									#43
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this isnt a whine or *****ing, just some ideas i want to get out:

i know its could be done by editor i want this to be official: how about giving army unload ability? it will make armies more useful and allow upgrades to those units.

also, one thing that needs to be addressed IMO is how when a trade with another civ is disrupted by something that is totally not my fault, usually because they are in war with some other civ (eg. their trade route is disconnected, their resource becomes disconnected), that civ shouldn't get angry at me and cause the other civs not wanting to trade with me...

also i dont get the "removal of despot rushing" change despite the explanation by the firaxian. did they remove the whole rushing production or only change unhappy citizen rushing exploit?

anyways, this should be a GREAT patch (although i hope despot rushing is not removed entirely) and i appreciate firaxis' work

	14-02-2002 01:47									#44
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Vel, I sympathize with your need for modding tools. I believe, however, that Firaxis properly prioritized. After all, a mod crippled by a fitful interface will become just as tedious as the regular game.

Clearly, this patch represents a triumph of steady, relentless, and constructive ideas offered by people like you. If this patch is any indication, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see a stellar editor just down the pipe.

And Coop, you should be ashamed. Whiners? We have our reward, thank you very much.

	14-02-2002 01:50									#45
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The inclusion of custom scenarios and the full editor to be able to create scenarios cannot (imo) simply be a patch. That is why I will patiently wait for the "expansion pack". Perhaps it will be Civ3 MGE with both the scenarios/editor(s) and MP.

	14-02-2002 01:52									#46
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I clap my hands at these improvements to the game : ) Even though I never noticed 80% of the problems they fixed. It's a good thing I waited to release my mod, because the update will wipe the slate clean. I will enjoy the mass unit movement, but I still hope for a reworked army concept in a future expansion pack, where armies are free to create and units can hop in and out as they please. But I understand of course that such a feature will take time to do.

	14-02-2002 01:53									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Libertarian It was quite random, yanking you all over the map. It was impossible to conduct a battle campaign or order worker detail without constant and persistent interruptions in your train of thought. ...

I perceived the ordering of unit activation as done by unit functions. Such as: artillery/bombardment units were activated together, regardless of where on earth they were; naval units; 'fast' units; ....

If they resequence somehow to keep on the 'current' screen until all units are moved, that may also take some getting used to in many situations -- 'move unit from side A of map to side B' may keep you at side B when you wanted to move more units from side A, or it may return you to side A when you wanted to remain at side B.

	14-02-2002 01:55									#48
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Well, we'll know soon enough, I suppose. I hope that it will return proximate to the theater from which it last moved.

	14-02-2002 01:58									#49
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... without comments.

	14-02-2002 01:59									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Gramphos Shouldn't that have been dfixed in version 1.16f?

No, I have 1.16f and recently had a unmovable and unsinkable Russian galley 2 tiles away from the last Russian city for the entire rest of the game.

EDIT: Sorry, with "last city" I meant the last city I took; they had no city left.

	14-02-2002 02:03									#51
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It looks pretty solid. The die roll for retreat will make using combined arms more attractive. The activation sequence coupled with stacking will really help out late in the game.

The BIG ONE, though, seems to be pop rushing. I never knew that the unhappiness from poprushing was buggy, and I didn't make extensive use of poprushing anyway (*crack* temple.... *crack* library... switch to republic), but I wonder what impact, if any, this will have on my early game.

Edit: Oh, and military suppression of cultural reversion is pretty big, too. I hope Firaxis lets us know the specifics on that one (1 unit per pop point, 2...3?). People don't like the uncertainty, and will be frustrated until they know for sure.

Here's hoping that a future patch will beef up the editor for the mod & scenario makers.

-Arrian

	14-02-2002 02:04									#52
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Thank ya Lib! And good to see you back in these parts! Mail me sometime soon and tell me all about the new job and such!

-=Vel=-

	14-02-2002 02:05									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph No, I have 1.16f and recently had a unmovable and unsinkable Russian galley 2 tiles away from the last Russian city for the entire rest of the game.

Well, at least the SAVs doesn't corrupt any more when sinking that ship

	14-02-2002 02:12									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Libertarian Those "professional-like discussions" were so inane and childish that Mark gutted them out, eviscerating whole posts.

eeer what on earth are you talking about? i only edited the faq thread(for obvious reasons). nothing to do with the suggestions/bugs threads....

	14-02-2002 02:17									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Gramphos Well, at least the SAVs doesn't corrupt any more when sinking that ship

But it crashes the game.

	14-02-2002 02:19									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph But it crashes the game.

Details, details.

I've never un into that problem myself, but I guess I've just been lucky.

	14-02-2002 02:32									#57
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quote: Thank ya Lib! And good to see you back in these parts! Mail me sometime soon and tell me all about the new job and such!

Will do, Vel.

quote: eeer what on earth are you talking about? i only edited the faq thread(for obvious reasons). nothing to do with the suggestions/bugs threads....

I stand corrected.

While you're at it, though, you might want to do a bit of editing in this thread.

	14-02-2002 02:35									#58
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Gramphos:

Well, I destroyed the last Russian city, but Russia was not yet defeated. Then I saw a Russian galley 2 tiles from the last taken Russian city, probably with a settler and Cathy. I had heard before, that there was a bug, saved the game and sunk the galley. A message popped up, that the Russians have been destroyed, after which the game crashed. The galley did not move for the whole game, as there was no room to settle. After a time, I managed to make peace with Cathy. In the end of industrial age some wars with razing made room to settle. I gave Cathy my map for free (she had no gold anyway), thought she would move and settle, but no. She remained in her galley and voted against me in the UN. Had to launch the Space ship.

Happened about 2 weeks ago with 1.16f.

	14-02-2002 02:36									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Libertarian And Coop, you should be ashamed. Whiners? We have our reward, thank you very much.

Ashamed of what?

Glad you feel that you are rewarded.



Back to topic:

It looks like it's only stack movement, not stack commands. (Is that the way anybody else reads it?)

I must have read over this earlier, but having Civilopedia links in the diplomacy window may be te best improvement in the whole patch.

Also the fix that stops AI civs from building more cities once the city limit is reached may be a real sleeper that may have a lot more impact to gameplay than most would expect.

"Fixed bug which caused some govenment buildings not to function properly." - Anybody know what this means?

	14-02-2002 02:41									#60
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quote: Originally posted by player1 * Added Sentry command: y = wake whenever next to friendly or enemy unit(s) / shift+y = wake whenever next to enemy unit(s). * Added stack movement. Hitting 'j' will produce the goto cursor. Once you select a destination, every unit of the active unit's type in that square will move to the specified location. Air units of the same type will attempt to rebase.

I really hope that they have added the equivalent screenbuttons for above as well. Im a mouseclick-man myself.

Im curious about "active units type". Obviously they are refering to land/sea/air branches only, and not to indevidual unit-types. One should (of course) be able to move around mixed stacks of, for example, land-units. Also, one should be able to stack non-combat units, as well. Navigating hordes of inefficient (especially under non-industrial Civs) foreign captured workers, one by one, is really somewhat of a chore.