14-02-2002 20:04									#61
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Libertarian Yes, I think I understand now. You're saying that you want to be able to form your attacking stacks prior to moving them, is that right?

Yes. Or defending stacks, or just-move-this-group-halfway-across-my-empire stacks, or whatever. It would be really nice to be able to put whatever units you want in a stack, instead of only being able to put one type of unit in a stack.

	14-02-2002 20:07									#62
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Slax Then, to move again next turn, I assume you have to again press j to keep your like units together for the next move. I'd rather have stacks that you load and unload.

Slax, I don't think anyone is arguing about the method of creating mixed unit stacks. It doesn't matter if the paradigm is "hit the j key to move a stack" or "load / unload units in stacks" -- as long as the user can create stacks that contain more than one type of unit, I'll be happy.

The key concept is "stacks can contain more than one type of unit" -- how that concept is implemented isn't all that important.

	14-02-2002 22:37									#63
	Suffering from ads?

You'll have to be careful about moving stacks containing just workers, artillery or catapults - because they will be vulnerable to capture by hostile forces

	14-02-2002 23:10									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Its a start I suppose, but I agree with Yin.

The CtP system is still many times superior, and I don't think Firaxis will be able to patch it in either. This is pretty much the best you'll get.

Wait for the X-pack.

	14-02-2002 23:15									#65
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Excuse my ignorance, Immortal Wombat, but I've been under the (perhaps misguided) apprehension that an expansion pack is merely a super-patch... Therefore, if you think Firaxis will be unable to include a sophisticated stack movement in a patch why will they be able to in an expansion pack?

V

	14-02-2002 23:21									#66
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't know whether they can implement it in the X-pack, but its the only hope there is. None of these tiny patches are going to do anything.
The AoK X-pack managed to add only one or two things that were bordering on 'major expansion', but maybe, just maybe there is someway that Firaxis can plug together some sort of semi-decent stacking movement. It won't be a very good feature, and will never be as good as in CtP, because the chances of Firaxis rewriting the combat system are nil.
Maybe they could make virtual-armies that enable you to move units of different types together, or maybe they'll add a line in the editor so you can make armies without leaders or something.

Its not likely, but it is the best hope.

	14-02-2002 23:29									#67
	Inflate your Upload Space

Not sure if I agree with you that all these little patches won't make any difference. The ability to rebase 20 bombers to the other side of the planet with one keystroke a scroll and a click makes a helluva big difference for me. I'd stopped playing because of irritations like rebasing and workers etc., and this will make me go back to it.

But, of course, this is just me!

V

	14-02-2002 23:35									#68
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by volcanohead Not sure if I agree with you that all these little patches won't make any difference.

Sorry. *a significant difference with regards mass movements of armies.

What are the chances you will have 20 bombers on the same tile going the same way next turn?

	14-02-2002 23:41									#69
	Got spare money?

I don't understand these lines of questioning. Don't you stockpile your weapons inventories in organized and sorted stacks?

	14-02-2002 23:42									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

High.

It's the way I invade a civ in the modern age. Hit a city with 20 bombers and your tanks go in nice and easy... The problem has been moving the little buggers around, until now.

quote: What are the chances you will have 20 bombers on the same tile going the same way next turn?

	14-02-2002 23:42									#71
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by ChrisShaffer The way Yin would like (and I would too), if I want to move my tanks and cavalry and infantry and artillery together, I'd designate them as a group, hit j, and they'd all move together. The way it's designed, I'll have to select a tank, hit j, the tanks move together. Then select a cavalry, hit j, the cavalry move together. Then select an infantry, hit j, the infantry move together. Then select an artillery, hit j, the artillery move together. See the difference? Yin's method allows players to designate groups containing only tanks, only artillery, etc. -- which is almost identical to the 1.17f system -- if that's what they want. And it allows other players to make combined forces groups. The 1.17f system doesn't allow for combined forces groups. Sigh.

Yes, I see the difference, but IIRC one of the Firaxis programmers explained earlier that that kind of movement would require a complete overhaul of the combat system.

But I see the advantages in such a system however and I wouldn´t scream blue murder if such a system was implemented

	14-02-2002 23:49									#72
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Libertarian I don't understand these lines of questioning. Don't you stockpile your weapons inventories in organized and sorted stacks?

Yes, each stack has four ranged units, six melee units and 2 flanking units. Occasionally I have another stack full of artillery. There are at least 4 stacks, and two each go to the next two target cities. They never go home.

	14-02-2002 23:51									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Okay, well I suppose you could do it that way. I've always sorted mine by inventory type, and so the change compliments what I already do. Sorry. I hope that perhaps your own style can be accomodated in the near future. Best of luck.

	14-02-2002 23:52									#74
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Seems to me then that the new movement will be very useful to you, Immortal Wombat, and not completely useless. Unless you elect not to use it, of course.

	14-02-2002 23:54									#75
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Isn't it a bit vulnerable stacking all units of one type together?

Oh, and I won't be using the new feature, I don't have Civ3 yet. I'm waiting for it to be worth my money.

	14-02-2002 23:58									#76
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Isn't it a bit vulnerable stacking all units of one type together?

That depends on how well defended your armory is. One of my armory cities will likely have 2 mech infantries, 1 radar artillery, 3 cruise missles, and say, 40 modern armors.

	15-02-2002 00:04									#77
	Tired of ads?

Fair enough. And I suppose it also depends on how well equiped the enemy is. How hard is it to get a long way ahead in terms of military gear in Civ3?

	15-02-2002 00:07									#78
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Isn't it a bit vulnerable stacking all units of one type together? Oh, and I won't be using the new feature, I don't have Civ3 yet. I'm waiting for it to be worth my money.

Well, now I'm very confused. In the discussion above were you were referring to hypothetical stacks, stacks in Civ2, stacks in SMAC? (I quite like the sound of that last one).

Have you EVER played Civ3? How do you know what you're talking about - sorry if that appears rude, but I really am curious.

	15-02-2002 00:18									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by volcanohead Well, now I'm very confused. In the discussion above were you were referring to hypothetical stacks, stacks in Civ2, stacks in SMAC? (I quite like the sound of that last one).

Primarily hypothetical stacks, based on experience of Civ2 non-stacked movement, CtP and CtP2 excellent stacked movement and combat, descriptions of Civ3 'stacking' and hypothetical ways of enabling any sort of stacking.

quote: Have you EVER played Civ3? How do you know what you're talking about - sorry if that appears rude, but I really am curious.

No I haven't, but then I try to avoid making any comments which make any assumptions about gameplay in Civ3 besides what I've read.

	15-02-2002 00:22									#80
	Suffering from ads?

Well, on reflection your approach seems eminently sensible. I forked out for the BTE Civ3 right from the start, and overall I think it's safe to say I've derived much greater enjoyment from participating in this forum than from playing the game.

But then, I wouldn't have joined this forum if I hadn't got the game, so....

	15-02-2002 04:07									#81
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by ChrisShaffer Slax, I don't think anyone is arguing about the method of creating mixed unit stacks. It doesn't matter if the paradigm is "hit the j key to move a stack" or "load / unload units in stacks" -- as long as the user can create stacks that contain more than one type of unit, I'll be happy. The key concept is "stacks can contain more than one type of unit" -- how that concept is implemented isn't all that important.

I know it is not a big issue, but my point was that stacks do not stay together between turns. Each turn you must "re-stack".

	15-02-2002 04:16									#82
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

But restacking is trivial.

	15-02-2002 04:26									#83
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Libertarian But restacking is trivial.

Thats why I said it wasn't a big issue.

Although, I would rather have the stacks stay together - I never touch the keyboard when playing....

	15-02-2002 05:18									#84
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

If we are forced to restack each turn, they might as well not even have released this 'fix.' For in the end, you'll spend about as much time stacking and restacking these discrete groups as you would just click and moving them individually.

And if it stays this way even come Gold Edition time, I guess Firaxis finally figured out a way to get rid of me.

So what do you say, Firaxis? Just tell Poly now that you never plan to do real stacks and that groups can't be locked ... and I'm gone from any and all Civ3 forums.

(...wow, that must be tempting for them to answer...)

	15-02-2002 05:19									#85
	Increase the size of your Attachments

No, Yin. Stacking is a reflexive smack of the "j" key. It is trivial.

	15-02-2002 05:23									#86
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by yin26 If we are forced to restack each turn, they might as well not even have released this 'fix.' For in the end, you'll spend about as much time stacking and restacking these discrete groups as you would just click and moving them individually. And if it stays this way even come Gold Edition time, I guess Firaxis finally figured out a way to get rid of me. So what do you say, Firaxis? Just tell Poly now that you never plan to do real stacks and that groups can't be locked ... and I'm gone from any and all Civ3 forums. (...wow, that must be tempting for them to answer...)

Try first playing game with this option as it is.

It is simple.
Not time consuming.

Easy to PROGRAM (that why it is in patch).

One nice compromise.


P.S.
And what's problem with moving 3 units instead of 20?

P.P.S
Some people can never be satisified.

	15-02-2002 05:27									#87
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yes, assuming sorted stacks, the kind you use. I'm talking about mixed stacks. If Firaxis never intends to do true stacking, that's all I need to know. I suppose using 'j' for like units is o.k. if you have pre-sorted stacks and don't mind using the keyboard so much, but as we have already discussed, for some people this is not a complete answer.

1) Let me designate and lock my stack with any units I want (o.k., no ships with infantry, etc.). Default the movement to lowest of the group.

2) Let me then move that entire stack with the click of the mouse, NOT any keyboard stuff turn and turn stack and stack again.

If those are not in the works, I don't need to hang around here anymore. Simple, really.

	15-02-2002 05:29									#88
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

player1: True, I am not satisfied with cobbled compromises. I want absolute quality on an aspect of the game that is utterly poisonous to enjoying it -- moving hundreds of units each turn. If a half solution is good enough for you, that's great.

	15-02-2002 05:32									#89
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by yin26 Yes, assuming sorted stacks, the kind you use. I'm talking about mixed stacks. If Firaxis never intends to do true stacking, that's all I need to know. I suppose using 'j' for like units is o.k. if you have pre-sorted stacks and don't mind using the keyboard so much, but as we have already discussed, for some people this is not a complete answer. 1) Let me designate and lock my stack with any units I want (o.k., no ships with infantry, etc.). Default the movement to lowest of the group. 2) Let me then move that entire stack with the click of the mouse, NOT any keyboard stuff turn and turn stack and stack again. If those are not in the works, I don't need to hang around here anymore. Simple, really.

Good buy yin!

See you in Civ4.



P.S.
What's problem with j key?
Don't tell me that you make pollution orders through menues.


P.P.S.
Yin if stacks are that big problem, try CTP2 (moded).

	15-02-2002 05:33									#90
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by yin26 If we are forced to restack each turn, they might as well not even have released this 'fix.' For in the end, you'll spend about as much time stacking and restacking these discrete groups as you would just click and moving them individually.

Try saying that with a straight face while moving your stack of 150 workers around... Somehow I think with stack movement would be slightly easier than without