14-02-2002 00:23									#1
	STACK MOVMENT in 1.17f YEEEEEEEES!!!!! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Look readme at Civfanatic forums.

	14-02-2002 00:30									#2
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How can this thread have a 5-star rating when there´s no replys? :

But other than that, yay!

	14-02-2002 00:59									#3
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Until someone comes up with a good argument why there shouldn't be stacks (and I'm talking about stacks that work, don't ask "what if it's buggy" or anything silly like that), then this thread deserves 5 stars. I don't care if it's been mentioned in other threads.

It deserves its own.

	14-02-2002 01:03									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Pembleton I don't care if it's been mentioned in other threads.

In fact, it is FIRST posted at this thread (not counting civfanatics).

	14-02-2002 01:43									#5
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I am pleasently surprised because I, honestly, didn't expect Firaxis to address this until the expansion pack was released. Hopefully, they can now concentrate on adding more techs, governments, and unit types in the expansion pack. That would round out the game and really improve the late game.

	14-02-2002 01:48									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Pembleton Until someone comes up with a good argument why there shouldn't be stacks (and I'm talking about stacks that work, don't ask "what if it's buggy" or anything silly like that), then this thread deserves 5 stars. I don't care if it's been mentioned in other threads. It deserves its own.

But I thought the rating of threads should be based on the actual content of the thread, the fact that it conveys good news doesn´t enter into it.

	14-02-2002 02:06									#7
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How can I be part of the apolyton comunism party? Comrade

	14-02-2002 02:09									#8
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hmmmm? HOW !!!!?????

	14-02-2002 03:45									#9
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Stacked movement deserves its own thread, as virtually everyone who plays (or has played) Civ 3 wants it.

Stacked Movement

	14-02-2002 03:45									#10
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quote: Originally posted by godinex How can I be part of the apolyton comunism party? Comrade

Just put member of the Communist Party of Apolyton in the location box in your profile. Welcome aboard, Comrade!

	14-02-2002 05:05									#11
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* Added stack movement. Hitting 'j' will produce the goto cursor. Once you select a destination, every unit of the active unit's type in that square will move to the specified location. Air units of the same type will attempt to rebase. *

Okay, so this begets a question. What do they mean by unit type? Do they mean role as in Land/Air/Sea? Or is this more like unit type as in Spearman archer etc?

For instance if one clicks a stack and tells all the 'land' units to move 3 squares away... will entire the stack move to the ammount of the slowest unit (thus remaining in a stack) as if you were selecting all land units? Or will it take all horsement and move them, then all swordsmen and move them etc... such that your stack may be thinned out due to differing movement values?


-FMK.

	14-02-2002 07:16									#12
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The way i understand it if i have 6 legions and 3 horsemen in Rome and i want to move 4 legions and 2 horsemen (keeping whats left for defense) i will have to

1) do 4 manual moves from Rome to an adjacent sqare for my legions

2) do 2 manual moves for my horses from Rome to an adjacent sqare

3) GoTo my 4 legions to destination (that's 1 move)

4) GoTo my 2 horsemen to destination (that's 1 move)

5) Well 4 doesn't work because my horses will go faster than my legions and will be left unprotected so i have to move them manually every turn so they stay on the same tile as my legions.


I don't want to break the party but THIS IS A SAD JOKE!!



i hope they implement real stacks in an expansion pack.

	14-02-2002 07:19									#13
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unless they changed the definition a Unit Type always was a Phalanx, a Warrior, etc. etc.

	14-02-2002 07:21									#14
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I mentioned this elsewhere, so please forgive me for posting the same thing in this thread regarding "stacked movement".


The Stack Command is really just a pseudo "stack command".

Let me explain:

The patch readme states that only units of the SAME TYPE within the stack will move to the designated location. So if you are being sensible and have a variety of DIFFERENT units, you will have to give them ALL individual unit commands. So much for stacked movement. . .

If you want to implement the so-called "stack movement", you'll have to make sure that all your stacks contain the EXACT SAME UNIT. So much for combined arms. . .

Last edited by Leonidas on 14-02-2002 at 07:26

	14-02-2002 07:24									#15
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Leonidas,

Yea, indeed. So much for the new patch.


When will Firaxis figure out that warships CAN be sunk by bombers?? I know the movie "Pearl Harbor" stunk, but Sid should go see it.

	14-02-2002 07:26									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Encomium Leonidas, Yea, indeed. So much for the new patch. When will Firaxis figure out that warships CAN be sunk by bombers?? I know the movie "Pearl Harbor" stunk, but Sid should go see it.

Broken record alert!!!!!!!!!!

	14-02-2002 07:39									#17
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I have recently been playing CTP2 with the Apolyton Pack Mod.

In this game they have implemented real stacked movement:

1) You can make an army containing up to 12 units of ALL types (a combined arms army that could include archers, hoplites, cavalry, seige weapons, etc). These 12 units then MOVE AS ONE UNIT anywhere you want subject to terrain movement. . .

So if you have 48 military units, you can group them into 4 armies, so that you only have to physically move just four units. . .

2) Units can be added to, or removed from, the army at ANY TIME. You do not even have to be in a city. In addition, each army can itself be divided into smaller armies, so that a 12 unit army could be divided into two 6 unit armies, or into three 4 unit armies, etc. . .

And it's all so easy to do: all actions can be given to the army or to any individual units within that army from a small panel screen

3) When the army attacks, it attacks as an ARMY, meaning all the units attack at the same time, so that each unit can complement the abilities of other units. For example, hoplites are found in the front line, archers in the rear, cavalry on the flanks. . .

4) When this army is a defender in a city, other defensive bonuses kick in depending on what improvements you have made to the city, such as adding walls, towers, etc. . .

5) The game's AI has been beefed up making it more aggressive. It too will use armies. Playing as Rome, I have been continually attacked by AI combined arms armies, meaning it knows how to put together an army with the right units for the job it wants to do. . .

It all really adds to the strategy. I love this feature! It seems so natural for this type of game. It's what all civers have been clamouring for. . .

Yet, why is it so difficult to have in Civ 3?

Last edited by Leonidas on 14-02-2002 at 07:57

	14-02-2002 07:45									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Leonidas Yet, why is it so difficult to have in Civ 3?

Well you mean beyond because it's a different game?

More like 12 year old alert.

	14-02-2002 07:48									#19
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Double Post - Sorry

	14-02-2002 07:58									#20
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While the movement regime being brought in by Fixaris is not 'true' stack movement, it is still a huge help. As far as i know, most conquering types use only fast units to attack, and since there is really only one fast unit per age, really, this will still make the lives of conquerors, or just somebody with 200 workers, much simpler.
As for Leonidas's points- I think that a while ago, most people who wanted stacked movement gave up on stacked combat.

	14-02-2002 08:01									#21
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Yes, it seems to me this is FAR from actual stacked movement. Once the buzz wears off around here, I think you'll realize that your big stack of units will still require you to move several mini-groups AND you'll get the added bonus (one can guess) of seeing each unit within those mini-groups moving to the square one by one (even if that isn't the case and the units warp into place as a group, this isn't true stacked movement).

Folks, this is a cobbled attempt at stacked movement. Let's hope they can implement the real thing over the next months.

	14-02-2002 08:08									#22
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Yes, it seems to me this is FAR from actual stacked movement. Once the buzz wears off around here, I think you'll realize that your big stack of units will still require you to move several mini-groups AND you'll get the added bonus (one can guess) of seeing each unit within those mini-groups moving to the square one by one (even if that isn't the case and the units warp into place as a group, this isn't true stacked movement). Folks, this is a cobbled attempt at stacked movement. Let's hope they can implement the real thing over the next months.

It's probably worth mentioning once AGAIN that yin26 neither enjoys, owns or plays Civilization III.

Reader discretion is advised.

	14-02-2002 10:05									#23
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MO, you're living proof that owning the game doesn't qualify a person about diddly.

Yin, I don't understand. Why isn't this group movement implementation satisfactory to you? In other words, how would it be possible to implement movement of units that don't move the same?

	14-02-2002 10:12									#24
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While the Firaxis language is a bit vague at this point, I think what they have done is this: Instead of treating the entire stack of units as a true stack, they have allowed you to automate the moving of 'same kind' units to a given location.

This means, for example, if you have a stack of 3 warriors, 2 knights, and 4 spearmen, EACH of those groups will still have to be ordered to move using 'j' ... and I imagine that you will see each individual unit moving.

In this case, 9 units will be see moving across the map after clicking and pressing 'j' 3 times to move what really SHOULD BE one stack of units. Sure, this might be nice for workers, but not much else.

I should be able to click on the stack, designate some or all units to be grouped, and move THE WHOLE DAMN thing in one click. Right?

	14-02-2002 10:18									#25
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quote: Originally posted by MOHonor Well you mean beyond because it's a different game? More like 12 year old alert.

MO:

Have you played CTP2?

Have you played Civ 3?

BTW, thanks for alerting me to the fact that you're a 12 year old.

It explains alot. . .

	14-02-2002 10:25									#26
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 I should be able to click on the stack, designate some or all units to be grouped, and move THE WHOLE DAMN thing in one click. Right?

yin26:

You're so right.

Maybe one day we will have the technology. . .

	14-02-2002 10:28									#27
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quote: I should be able to click on the stack, designate some or all units to be grouped, and move THE WHOLE DAMN thing in one click. Right?

Again, I ask, how is that possible? How would you handle the nondeterminism as a programmer? Those units move different numbers of tiles. Surely, you wouldn't penalize the tanks by having them move only however far the spearman could move, would you?

	14-02-2002 10:34									#28
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firaxis already has a good system for stacked movement, it's not perfect but it is good...that system is called armies with some improvements it could satisfy most of the players stacked movement needs

_______________________

Leonidas

quote: Units can be added to, or removed from, the army at ANY TIME. You do not even have to be in a city.

it's a bug, but you can load units in an army anywhere on the map in civ3, and this is how it should be

quote: Units can be added to, or removed from, the army at ANY TIME

there should be limits on this in civ3, so you can't continuously adding fresh units to an army and abusing the system, but it should be possible to unload, and to upgrade units in the army

quote: The game's AI has been beefed up making it more aggressive. It too will use armies. Playing as Rome, I have been continually attacked by AI combined arms armies, meaning it knows how to put together an army with the right units for the job it wants to do

the civ3 AI will take advantage of armies, it uses them in my mod quite frequently...but with the default civ3 rules, you are better off not using armies, so the AI is actually making a good decision

quote: When the army attacks, it attacks as an ARMY, meaning all the units attack at the same time, so that each unit can complement the abilities of other units. For example, hoplites are found in the front line, archers in the rear, cavalry on the flanks

while i don't think that the CtP2 combined arms system is perfect, i would like to see something like this in civ3, and instead of forming an army great leaders should build generals instead that you could attach to an army for a bonus, something like maybe a 25-50% bonus, but once you turn a great leader into a general then it couldn't ever build a wonder

quote: When this army is a defender in a city, other defensive bonuses kick in depending on what improvements you have made to the city, such as adding walls, towers, etc

defensive bonuses kick in with civ3 as well, or am i missing something here?

quote: Yet, why is it so difficult to have in Civ 3?

if i only knew

ps

quote: I have recently been playing CTP2 with the Apolyton Pack Mod

wouldn't an unmodded CtP vs. Civ3 and a modded CtP vs. Civ3 comparision be more fair?

but i agree civ3 still has lots of rough edges, and if Infogrames had of listened to me and released civ3 next month after a long open beta test where we could have all tore civ3 apart then helped firaxis fix it i'm sure it would have been much better

oh well maybe better luck next time

	14-02-2002 10:36									#29
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quote: firaxis already has a good system for stacked movement, it's not perfect but it is good...that system is called armies with some improvements it could satisfy most of the players stacked movement needs

Wrong.

Aside from the fact that armies cannot accomodate ships, planes, and workers, they suffer from the very problem that I'm talking to Yin about : they are as efficient in movement as their weakest unit. Armies serve a purpose as uber-units, nothing more.

	14-02-2002 10:39									#30
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quote: Again, I ask, how is that possible? How would you handle the nondeterminism as a programmer? Those units move different numbers of tiles. Surely, you wouldn't penalize the tanks by having them move only however far the spearman could move, would you?

That's PRECISELY how I would handle it. This is also a concern actual armies must face. Thus, if you *must* get somewhere fast, don't stack with slower units.

Heck, it even hints at some kind of strategic decision!