14-02-2002 01:32									#1
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If you create a government-specific building, will it be operational under other governments?

I hoped it won't - I can hardly imagine a Gulag being operational under Democracy.

	14-02-2002 05:27									#2
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unfortunantly i think they are operational under other governments

you might want to retest this though

	14-02-2002 07:17									#3
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Yes they are operational. Government specific refers only to the abilty to build them in the first place.

Now that would be a good feature in a future patch!

	20-02-2002 06:03									#4
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Hm... The 1.17f readme says

quote: Fixed bug which caused some government buildings not to function correctly.

Is this it? Can we have our Gulags now?

	20-02-2002 06:42									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Optimizer Hm... The 1.17f readme says Is this it? Can we have our Gulags now?

Apparently so. I haven't checked it out yet, seeing as how I just finsihed making my own Gulags. But that's what I've been hearing on the grapevine. That makes for a few more possibilities! Now if only I could select multiple governments. I'd like to be able to have buildings that are available to most govs, but not all.

Are you listening by any chance Mike?

	20-02-2002 07:18									#6
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If it works, one could create a model for buildings to have different effects under different governments.

Say, for instance, that a Cathedral would make 3 citizens happy under Despotism/ Monarchy, 2 under Republic/Democracy and none under Communism. Then remove the upkeep cost and the happiness effects from the Cathedral and introduce one building, requiring a Cathedral, for each government (you can call them Despotic priesthood, Monarchy priesthood and so on). These buildings would cost nothing to build, but have upkeep costs and benefits depending on their governments.

One problem is that one would need a lot of buildings.

	20-02-2002 07:46									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Optimizer If it works, one could create a model for buildings to have different effects under different governments. Say, for instance, that a Cathedral would make 3 citizens happy under Despotism/ Monarchy, 2 under Republic/Democracy and none under Communism. Then remove the upkeep cost and the happiness effects from the Cathedral and introduce one building, requiring a Cathedral, for each government (you can call them Despotic priesthood, Monarchy priesthood and so on). These buildings would cost nothing to build, but have upkeep costs and benefits depending on their governments. One problem is that one would need a lot of buildings.

The easier option would be like I said, selecting multiple governments. In the case of Cathedrals for instance, it would be available and operational to all govs except Communism. So there would have to be some replacements that have a similar effect for Communism.

That would be a setback for that type of government if you think about, since as soon as you switch over, all these religious buildings made earlier become useless, and you have to build a whole new infrastructure to keep your people happy. It wouldn't be nearly as easy for people to switch from Democracy in order to wage war. They'd probably have to use up quite a few of their forces as military police at first, until they've had a chance to get their gulags in place.

Another approach here would be to have different lines of happiness buildings for different Govs. For instance, I have a Monastery improvement I've added so I could only build and use it in a Republic, then make my Cathedrals only work with Democracy. I'll have to come up with a different line for Monarchy, and Communism though. And Dictatorship as well, I've added that to my game. Hmm.., some possibilities here.

	20-02-2002 09:18									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Optimizer If it works, one could create a model for buildings to have different effects under different governments. Say, for instance, that a Cathedral would make 3 citizens happy under Despotism/ Monarchy, 2 under Republic/Democracy and none under Communism. Then remove the upkeep cost and the happiness effects from the Cathedral and introduce one building, requiring a Cathedral, for each government (you can call them Despotic priesthood, Monarchy priesthood and so on). These buildings would cost nothing to build, but have upkeep costs and benefits depending on their governments. One problem is that one would need a lot of buildings.

Here's an idea for gov specific happiness buildings. It revolves around using variations of the Cathedral:

Monarchy: Monastery, 2 happy, 2 culture, requires temple
Republic: Cathedral, 3 happy, 2 culture, requires Temple
Democracy: City Hall, 3 happy, 3 culture, requires Courthouse
Communism: Gulag, 2 happy, 1 culture, no requirement
Dictatorship: Constabulary 1 happy, 1 culture, requires Police Station

I'm not to crasy about the name Gulag, I'd rather have something more like a secret police, but I can't think of a name. Suggestions?

PS. Of course, Politburo.

	20-02-2002 20:20									#9
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If you want it with communist flavor, most notorious secret services are Cheka, NKVD, MGB and Smersh (KGB was mildly liberal compare to them). The most secret, efficient and the only one dealing with real spies (sometimes that is, they killed a lot of ordinary peoples and suspected political dissidents also), was Smersh. It existed during WWII only, (abbreviation for "death to spies" "smert shpionam" in russian) and famous for high gunfight training of its operatives (well, the rest of russian secret police weren't dealing with opponent who could put up a fight). They invented "pendulum" , special kinde of maneuvering in very close gunfight. Smersh also was James Bond opponent in first James Bond books (wrongly, it was disbanded by that time).

	20-02-2002 21:17									#10
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What`s exactly a Gulag?

	20-02-2002 21:26									#11
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Ya!

Attachment: gulagmap.jpg
This has been downloaded 102 time(s).

	20-02-2002 21:36									#12
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quote: Originally posted by godinex What`s exactly a Gulag?

Basically it's just another name for concentration camp, though it has more of a political role. In the early days of the Soviet regime, they set up Gulags in Siberia where they would send their dissidents. Some survived, a lot of them didn't. There was a Russian writer several years ago, Alezander Solzshenytzin (sp?), who wrote the "The Gulag Archipelagos" (sp?) which chronicled his experiences in one he lived in for many years. If you'd like to know what they were like, read his book.

	20-02-2002 22:42									#13
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Little comment - Gulag is not a concentration camp itself, it was a central department of concentration camps in the internal affairs ministry. It is abbreviation for "glavnoe upravlenie lagerey" - "the central department of camps". Most of Gulag prisoners weren't even dissidents - they were random peoples, captured because Gulag had monthly and yearly norms for prisoners to get. It's difficalt to estimate number of prisoners in Gulag, it was probably from 5 to 15 % of all population. Alexander Solgenitsin indeed a best source of information about Gulag.

Last edited by s3d on 20-02-2002 at 22:47

	20-02-2002 23:01									#14
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quote: Originally posted by s3d Little comment - Gulag is not a concentration camp itself, it was a central department of concentration camps in the internal affairs ministry. It is abbreviation for "glavnoe upravlenie lagerey" - "the central department of camps". Most of Gulag prisoners weren't even dissidents - they were random peoples, captured because Gulag had monthly and yearly norms for prisoners to get. It's difficalt to estimate number of prisoners in Gulag, it was probably from 5 to 15 % of all population. Alexander Solgenitsin indeed a best source of information about Gulag.

Thanks for the info. I realize I'm rather shaky when it comes to understanding the government structure of Communism. It's not something they taught in western schools.

	21-02-2002 07:22									#15
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A more benign version of a gulag (as used in China) might be a cadre center. The cadre (or "gan bu" in Chinese) are low level government officials who are chosen from university students, industrial workers, etc and basically include a broad range of social spectrum. So although the central government is not open to general selection by the people, the lower levels of it are, thus allowing for limited election rights. The cadre are also meant to represent interests and needs of their region or industrial sector. Therefore, populace dissatisfaction has a vent and can (hopefully) lead to improvements.

Just a thought, because gulags are quite obviously negative whereas the cadre in China are rather more constructive. If you want to portray a less brutal socialist state, then this might be more accurate.

Such a building might reduce unhappiness and some corruption. Working in conjunction with courthouses and police stations, this might even produce a nearly corruption-free city, since corruption is evenly spread in Civ3's Communisms.

(Of course, you couldn't really call China a hardcore Communist state these days. Mao must be turning in his mausoleum.)

Last edited by Alinestra Covelia on 21-02-2002 at 07:28

	21-02-2002 20:13									#16
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All right, keep it coming folks, I appreciate all the info I'm recieving. I've been thinking about adding Socialism to my game and this should fit in nicely as a happiness building for it. I like the idea of having Communism represented as a hard nosed gov, but I'd also like to show a communal economy in a better light. And now that gov specific buildings are supposedly working properly, I need some ideas for structures.

One thing I'd like is the name of some burueacracy that could represent another version of the Forbidden Palace for Socialism, though doing something besides reduce corruption. For instance, I have the Senate for Republic, and Parliament for Democracy. I'm already using the Kremlin for Communism, so I'd like some ideas for a Socialist structure. It sounds to me like the Chinese model might be a good one to emulate.

	21-02-2002 22:33									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Optimizer Hm... The 1.17f readme says Is this it? Can we have our Gulags now?

OK, it's confirmed, you can have your Gulags now. I received an answer from Firaxis' Q&A guy and gov specific buildings do work now. They won't even appear in your city list if you have the wrong gov, nor can you use them as a requirement for something else.

	21-02-2002 22:58									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Willem OK, it's confirmed, you can have your Gulags now. I received an answer from Firaxis' Q&A guy and gov specific buildings do work now. They won't even appear in your city list if you have the wrong gov, nor can you use them as a requirement for something else.

What happens if you have the 'right' govrernment, build a gov-specific building and switch to another government? Will the building just dissappear, be sold automatically or stay, but lose its effects? What happens if you switch back to the 'right' government?

	21-02-2002 23:30									#19
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep What happens if you have the 'right' govrernment, build a gov-specific building and switch to another government? Will the building just dissappear, be sold automatically or stay, but lose its effects? What happens if you switch back to the 'right' government?

If you switch govs, the building will disappear from your city list. I'm not positive, but I suspect that it would reappear if you switched back. It's still there, but you can't see it or gain any benefit from it. I didn't think about asking that question.