15-02-2002 06:45									#1
	Without Criticism, There Would Be No Decent Patching: Agree or Disagree? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I have seen Lib lately make the statement that the latest patch would never have been released / would never have addressed important issues such as stacking were it not for the critics trying to override "sychophantic" statements that Civ3 was/is just fine. Such a statement assumes two things that might help shape this discussion:

1) That Firaxis actually monitors criticism in some way and in some threads, at least.

2) That Firaxis would have had different priorities were it not for the results of #1.

Agree or Disagree: A good patching process requires critical fans?

	15-02-2002 07:42									#2
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I voted "absolutely", but I think I should note a couple of caveats:

1) A good company should not rely solely on BBS's or other public forums for feedback on their products. They should proactively solicit critiques using CSI surveys, focus groups, and other methods, and should do so in a way that ensures valid cross-sections of their market and provides statistically meaningful results. "Whining", while often constructive, is not always truly representative of the market as a whole.

2) Not every complaint or concern needs to be addressed. "You can't please all the people all the time" pretty much sums that one up.

Now this isn't a criticism of Firaxis, this forum, or any of its members. I don't know what Firaxis' decision-making policy was, or even whether they did conduct CSI surveys and/or focus groups. And I'm not passing judgment or making commentary on any individual or aggregate posts made here or on any other forum. I'm just stating that it's best not to rely on a single means of collecting feedback when there's no way of knowing how representative that sample is of your target market.

	15-02-2002 07:46									#3
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I think that they (IMHO) would put the the issues of the critics on low priority until the critisizm had reached a "threshold" level that they just couldn't ignore anymore. When, clearly, the large groundswell of stack movement/unit activation support was beginning to shift to the staunchest of noncritics, somthing had to be done, or it would really threaten there future plans for the game.

E_T

	15-02-2002 08:08									#4
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I voted for the top option: criticism is valid in general, in principle it should help.

But I sometimes think we fail to point out the +ves as throughly as we feed on the inevitable problems.

[I actually really like the interface + the advisor system, call me soft but I think Domestic advisor is helpful and kind of cute :-) ]

whats that THUD! in the background??

Pick yourself off the floor Libertarian! :-)

	15-02-2002 08:15									#5
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Normal Criticism is useless for instance "I think Civ3 is stupid"
Constructive Criticism is extremely useful "I think Civ3 could do with an improvement in the functionality of the Artificial Intelligence's tech trade cheating".

	15-02-2002 08:19									#6
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I resent your use of the term "whining" in the poll.

If everyone was as mindless and easily-pleased as some of the fanboys around here Firaxis would have no problem putting out shoddy underdeveloped merchandise over and over, besides not fixing what they got wrong in the first place.

	15-02-2002 08:20									#7
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"Depends." As one who was banned a couple of times from the TalonSoft forums years ago, due to criticisms from me, I have certainly earned my "whiner's badge" in those days.

(And when it comes to historical wargames, I'm the worst kind of critic: a "grognard." )

But I always seek to maintain perspective where possible. If the criticisms are constructive and offered in a compelling way, it behooves the game developer (or a supporting tester or someone else "in the circle") to acknowledge the critique, and offer either an effective counter-argument or some indication to at least consider a future game revision. Otherwise, a shoot-from-the-hip gripe with no substance doesn't deserve even the time of day for a response.

	15-02-2002 08:45									#8
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"Depends" Constructive critics? very useful. Pure whining? grow up kid!!

hey yin, have you bought the game now? Or still waiting for the multiplayer-gold-edition??

Last edited by zergling on 15-02-2002 at 09:17

	15-02-2002 09:13									#9
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quote: I resent your use of the term "whining" in the poll.

Resent away. This is why we have a language full of nuances: "...even the sort that people might call 'whining,'..." Some people call what some other people do 'whining.' I make no apologies. In fact, this poll is intended in part to touch on the very issue you seem to resent. Sit back. Relax.

zergling: Still waiting, of course! Too many other great games to play while Firaxis fixes the beta. Anyway, Markos thinks I'm gonna crack because the last patch was so spectacular.

	15-02-2002 09:14									#10
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The suggested content of this patch was agreed at first pass so it was clearly finalised a long time ago. I can understand, tolerate and even appreciate a week or so of vocal protests over the lack or misimplementation of a certain feature. Even more useful is a careful analysis shorn of all the unnecessary invective. Beyond that point I believe it becomes meaningless bile ridden spam and the authors are just intent on making everyone feel miserable about what could otherwise be a generally positive playing experience. Having the bare faced gall to try and claim extensive credit for a lot of hard work by the developers, aided by all the contributory fans, is beneath contempt.

	15-02-2002 09:28									#11
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Well put, Grumbold.

Ditto.

	15-02-2002 09:54									#12
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Yes, voicing a concern about an issue is the only way to let Firaxis know what the majority of us want.

However, past a certain point (when Firaxis must have already known about the issue and even commented on it) the complaining just becomes noise.

Then theres the criticism with no suggestion of how to improve the game or even something specific about the game that needs improving. Such as "Civ 3 sucks - go play CTP / Civ 2"
This type of whining is completely useless (as well as dull and repetitive)

	15-02-2002 10:01									#13
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Looking at the early results, it seems most of us believe to one degree or another that notifying Firaxis of our concerns is beneficial to both sides. Skanky Burns' comment brings up the next issue, which is: How do we know what particular issues Firaxis has paid attention to and is considering?

I submit that unless they actively tell us, we are BOUND to repeat ourselves and see the kind of whining we have seen. For one cannot simpy post a suggestion/criticism, get no official replies, and expect that the issue has been registered at Firaxis. Makes no sense.

	15-02-2002 12:48									#14
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 I submit that unless they actively tell us, we are BOUND to repeat ourselves and see the kind of whining we have seen. For one cannot simpy post a suggestion/criticism, get no official replies, and expect that the issue has been registered at Firaxis. Makes no sense.

Why not? The discussions continue, they listen in and occasionally say something. So?

	15-02-2002 13:18									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Spook42 "Depends." As one who was banned a couple of times from the TalonSoft forums years ago, due to criticisms from me, I have certainly earned my "whiner's badge" in those days.

Welcome in the club. This time I made the decision, not to buy any Talonsoft games anymore.

My vote is "depends". Feedback is appreciated even if it's negative, but b*tch fests and personal insults as seen at these boards are ignored and thus contraproductive.

	15-02-2002 13:20									#16
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quote: Why not? The discussions continue, they listen in and occasionally say something. So?

Right. On the points where they 'occasionally' say something, things usually quiet down if the thing said answers the question at hand.

	15-02-2002 13:27									#17
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All of this really depends if the company cares or not. Judging by Firaxis' participation and monitoring of the fan sites, I would say so. To what extent I do not know.

	15-02-2002 14:14									#18
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Everyone's a critic. Even those who like the game. Or do I see empty suggestion threads?

Then again, do the critics expect to attract no criticism? How unfair! It's a discussion board. Live with it or shut up.

My only abiding complaint about the process is when it goes personal. When someone attacks the designers, or one of the designers personally, they cannot reply. By the very nature of their positions, they are denied a voice in the mud-slinging. So that is when the flames without end begin. Because you bet, someone will reply for them, and then... and then...

Salve

	15-02-2002 14:28									#19
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I suppose I should say that, for the record, I agree with the statements that I've made.

	15-02-2002 18:20									#20
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Everyone's a critic. Even those who like the game. Or do I see empty suggestion threads? . . . My only abiding complaint about the process is when it goes personal. Salve

Hear! Hear!

In any case, I'm sure that patches were inevitable, not forced by complaints. Constructive criticism is absolutely essential to the process.

	15-02-2002 23:21									#21
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suggestion and critic is something different


voted depends.

Besides I think I would love civ3 if I havent played so much civ2 before. The civ series has nothing to offer for me anymore. Civ3 is still a top notch game and I play it from time to time always having some fun. Though as said, I have played to much in this genre. Time to move to something else. Operation Flashpoint for example is a hell of a game!!!

ata

	15-02-2002 23:47									#22
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Voted Depends :

Some additions, like stacking units and sentry command come clearly from the revendications of the fans (Revendications like stacking units were born thanks to the activism of some, like Lib, but not him alone).
But We shouldn't overestimate the importance of fans : good ideas can be drowned in a sea of noise, flamefests and whining, and thus not listened. There are plenty of excellent ideas which are incompatible with Civ code, or with the wishes of general public (and again, these good ideas make a kind of "noise", albeit constructive, around the implementable good ideas).

	15-02-2002 23:52									#23
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Obviously voted "Depends".

It's simply, unlike the perception, Apolyton is only a tiny fraction of the Civ3 customers and even among hardcore civers, it is but one place (with civfanatacs, usenet and others having equally valuable input). Do you really that "we" are better than everyone else and that our "opinions" should weigh that much more? I personally believe that Firaxis receives far more email than what has been posted here because, again, we are a small percentage of their customers.

	15-02-2002 23:59									#24
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Let me go on record as saying "depends". Pointing out what the game lacks is a very valuable thing, but constantly posting over and over and complaining that nothing is getting done is worthless.

"We" have had to sit through numerous complaints about the same topic over and over and then be subjected to the "Why won't you answer me?" whines, while some of us took the time to post in the "suggestions" thread and not go for some kind of "personal glory".

I personally find it offensive when someone claims that if they hadn't screamed and yell and posted assinine comments repeatedly that "nothing would have been done." This is another slap in the face of all the working people at Firaxis. These kinds of actions are embarrassment to everyone here at Apolyton.

Firaxis programers made the patch. They obviously have been working on this for some time. It would have been done regardless of the whines. To think other wise is delusional

	16-02-2002 05:22									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Encomium I resent your use of the term "whining" in the poll. If everyone was as mindless and easily-pleased as some of the fanboys around here Firaxis would have no problem putting out shoddy underdeveloped merchandise over and over, besides not fixing what they got wrong in the first place.

Perfect example of whining -- more effort put into insulting people than into the content.

Direct thought out suggestions, complaints, and critisisms are helpful. Folks like you give the critics of this forum a bad name.
Suggestions - pull the insults out of your messages and see
if there's any content before posting.

	16-02-2002 05:45									#26
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Let's give that a try:

quote: Perfect ... people ... are helpful. Folks like you give ... messages...

Yep, big improvement.

	16-02-2002 05:53									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Libertarian Let's give that a try: Perfect ... people ... are helpful. Folks like you give ... messages... Yep, big improvement.

Good one Lib! I don't agree with the message, but still you are a master of subjective ommisions.

	16-02-2002 05:53									#28
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Everybody has their own agenda. That's life. Some people forward their agendas aggressively, and sometimes that pays off for them, sometimes it backfires.

If the guys at Firaxis didn't have a strong vision for what they want the playing experience to be like, the game would show this lack. That they are open to listening, to considering the feedback they receive, is good enough for me. I'm sure they realize that even the "whiners" care a great deal about their product, and take some comfort from that. They're still just regular folks, too, though, so I'm sure it bothers them at least on some level when people have unkind things to say.

Rebalancing and polishing a game this intricate is a tough, involved process. There are things that escape the imagination. That's where fans help a LOT, able (perhaps) to offer feedback in whatever blind spots the game designers may have. They clearly do value the feedback, and it definitely has some impact, but fans are as obligated (in a moral sense) to remain humble about their place in this relationship as Firaxis is.

To the degree that a few individuals get too emotional, either on the attack or in defense, this reflects more on them individually (IMO) than it does on the hosts of the forums. I know all too well how little control a forum moderator/operator really does have, as I've been in those shoes myself. The Pros at Firaxis are doing plenty right -- the best job I've seen from any game company in the last few years in patching their game and dealing with fans.

Good faith goes a long way with me. It's not everything, but it's the biggest thing. That's all I have to say for now.


- Sirian

	16-02-2002 06:13									#29
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voted "rarely"

I've been reading these forums for quite a while. I have'nt really written a lot. Way back, when they were discussing a successor to civII, I read a lot of interesting things. None of it, really made it in CivIII. So, my conclusion: Firaxis makes its own game, simple and hououst.

P.S. by the way, I like civ III, I can play it for hours.

	16-02-2002 06:44									#30
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Yeah, without criticism the game would not improve at all, apart from a few bug fixes. You can see this with stacked movement, do you honestly think that would have gone in without people complaining about the time it takes to move units around? Or the weakened retreat. Constuctive criticism is vital for improving the game, all you whiner whiners do no real good at all.