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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by Logical Realist
Maybe the numerical relationships described by math exist but math itself cannot. Math is just a field of study, remove any being capable of studying math and you remove math. For the time being. |
So then what do you want to call it?
If the numerical relationships exist without Man then it would be charitable to call this hair splitting on your part. Shall we call it numericalrelationshipsthatwecan'tcallmathbecausema
nisnotaroundtocallitthatology.
I will stick with calling it math. The numerical relationships don't need Men but Men need words to discuss them.
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MrBaggins
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkCloud
The american people are idiots.
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Woah! Hold on there, Nelly!
Try using the word some...
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkCloud
kansas is part of the southern "bible belt" |
Its not Southern. Its that simple. The Bible Belt is not limited to the South.
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and bush was isolationist because the people were isolationist. The people didn't want war. |
Bush is isolationist because HE is isolationist. He didn't even get the majority of the votes.
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The american people are idiots. |
Thank you. I apreciate you staggering ignorance about the American public.
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They should either invervene in EVERY foreign war (Yugoslavia and AFRICAN WARS!) or they should intervene in NONE!!!(!#(@&$(!@ |
And you call Americans iditiots. Perhaps you need you need to work on your own logic. You are short on it.
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Can't they decide what they want. |
Actually we decide every election. Its the Italians that can't decide.
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And democrats are more isolationist- they don't want people to buy weapons and arms. |
You have no idea of what you are talking about. First your wrong. Second the conclusion does not follow from the premise.
By that illogic the Brits are isolationist because they REALLY don't allow people to buy arms.
I am a democrat. I have a pistol.
All right I don't have any bullets for it. So what?
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkCloud
As a group they are.
As are any group of people unless the group has a wise and enlighetened leader. |
Americans aren't into groups that way. We don't depend on a paternalist leader to do our thinking for us.
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Ethelred- what is it then- Midwestern? |
Its about as Midwestern as its possible to be.
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In kansas the stereotype is a bunch of southern hicks much like Arkansaw or Tejas. |
Arkansas is Southern. Texas is TEXAS not Southern. Texas is part of the South but its not realy Southern. Its part of the South-West and in many way a typical Western State except that it was once a slave state.
Texas is a unique state. It doesn't fit into categories very well but it best fits the West these days. It never had the aristocracy that the Deep South had. Its true religion is football. American football. I am not Texan but I think many Texans would agree with me on this.
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Bush is isolationist because the PEOPLE want to be isolationist, the politicaians cater to the PEOPLE. that is why the parties are so much alike. They don't want to alienate the people. |
Americans are not as isolationist as you think. It varies from place to place of course. We would I suppose prefer to mind our own bussiness. Which sounds good to me but our bussiness is worldwide these days and has been for since the Civil War and much more so since WWII. The Pacific Coast economy is strongly connected with Asia the East Coast is more connected to Europe.
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I am not short on logic- they should have a consistent foreign policy. Not- we'll intervene only when Europeans are having genocidal wars. |
That is silly. We intervene when its in our interests and that is consistent enough. We intervened in Somalia. It did not go well. Continued intervention would not be in US interests in most countries there. Dead Americans is never in US interests.
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AS in people buying weapons and arms- I meant the MILITARY they want to shrink the military. Generally, Republicans want to enlarge it, \ |
Which has nothing to do with isolationism. Its just a matter of priorities on spending. Republicans decrease the military when it suits them and Bush senior did that and he was no isolationist. Reagan increased it and he too was not an isolationist.
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MrBaggins
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkCloud
As a group they are.
As are any group of people unless the group has a wise and enlighetened leader.
*snip*
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Stupid>
1 a : slow of mind : OBTUSE b : given to unintelligent decisions or acts : acting in an unintelligent or careless manner c : lacking intelligence or reason : BRUTISH
Well I'm not stupid... and I'm part of this group. I know many other individuals whom I would not catagorize as stupid.
I won't argue with you about the President being dumber than a bag of hammers... but... ok there's no but there..
However, he doesn't make all the descisions... they are made by committee, and by elected official. Many of whom are not stupid.
If you can prove the stupidity of the U.S. as a whole grouping, I'd like to see it.
Also, if you can come up with some countries with consistently enlightened leaders... I'd like to see that too.
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Ethelred
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There is a new thread on the subject. Just got moved here from Civ3 general. Someone was complaining the Theory of Evolution as a Great Wonder.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=47752
That thing started today and it allready on page NINE.
And thats without me adding to it.
Here is another one that just popped up
Religious evolution
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=47728
The threads are being created faster than the Bible has Jehova creating in Genesis.
I am busy reading about the new patch myself.
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Jack_www
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One thing that I can see form the things I have read recently and form the threads in here, that evolution vs. creation is more of a controversy then I ever thought. I never knew that it is such a hot subject. I saw the evolution thread in the Civ3 forum too, and the first time I looked at it was 4 pages, a few hours I came back and it was 9 pages. Like I said maybe we should have a debate with a planel of judges, since so many people are debating this all over the forums here at apolyton.
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Lung
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of my princess Anastasia!
Mar 1999
time: 15:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Jack_www
I have not gone away to hide under a rock. I have not had time to make a thoughtfull post because I have a report due, and I need to spend time on that and other things that I need to do. But I have not gone into hiding. As for other people, I have no idea what they are doing. Some of them may be like me, dont have time. I can only speak for my self. I will make a post soon though, been doing research on this subject in my spare time. |
JACK'S BACK!!!
I never said you were one of the bad guys, Jack  I just said that we were the good guys 
At least you have an open mind, and don't resort to perpetuating lies, at least not deliberately. While there certainly have been scientists with closed minds throughout history, science has thrived on the premise that all knowledge is challengable. It is the fundamental search for the truth that is the secret to the success of science, and that process may never end, because the universe is extremely complex and guards it's secrets very well.
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Jack_www
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In my research I have found a interesting article. Allthough I dont know how accurate the info in it is, I still found it interesting and will post it to see what you guys think.
quote:
TIME ENOUGH FOR EVERYTHING
Two B.C. academics devise a theory to merge Creation theory and evolution
As science finds ever more evidence confirming the universe is billions of years old, Biblical accounts of a seven-day Creation are increasingly seen as metaphorical, even by the faithful. According to a new theory devised by two B.C. academics, however, the two views of the universe need not be seen as exclusive.
While working on a science fiction film, Chris Montoya, a 49-year-old psychology professor at the University College of the Cariboo in Williams Lake, B.C., and his friend, Simon Fraser University physics student Graeme MacKay, wondered how a Creator's interactions with the earth would affect time. Some scientists have already speculated that, because God exists outside mankind's space and time, time for Him moves at a different rate than for us. Messrs. Montoya and MacKay have taken that concept a step further by creating a mathematical equation to show how the Biblical account of Creation and the fossil record could both be true using Einstein's theory of general relativity.
Their theory begins with the idea that God experiences time differently than humans. Prof. Montoya estimates the entire history of the universe to be about 17 of God's days. The academics' equation has found five points where the Bible and the fossil record line up almost perfectly. Four of these points are days (in God's time) three, four, five and six of the Bible's account of creation.
Prof. Montoya also cites Psalms 90:4, where David writes that "a thousand years are as a day in your sight." When David wrote these words ca. 500 BC, this was during God's day 12, when a day in God's timeline would last 1,000 human years, according to the equation. "If David is just using a metaphor, how did he happen to use the right number of years?" asks Prof. Montoya. "We're talking about sheep herders. They couldn't have managed to put everything in the right order in their Creation accounts based on what they knew. It's like someone was leaving a little message for us to find once we discovered how time works in our universe."
Stuart Sutherland, an earth-origins specialist at the University of B.C., calls the academic's work "an interesting concept...but I would be cautious about shoehorning and stretching things to make a theory fit." The professor, who has a Christian background but does not attend church, believes science and theology can exist side by side, as they are intended to address different things. "Science asks how; religion asks why...When you find that you don't know all the answers, it's actually quite gratifying as it gives you more to investigate."
Prof. Montoya, who also believes in God without being particularly religious, believes that when it comes to the origins of the universe, science and religion should work together. "There's evidence an intelligent design is at work in the universe," he says. "I'd agree with the Psalmist that we are 'fearfully and wonderfully made.'"
PHOTO (COLOR): Psychology professor Montoya: (left) and assistant MacKay: God's time is different from ours.
Source: Report / Newsmagazine (National Edition), 2/18/2002, Vol. 29 Issue 4, p49, 2/3p, 1c
Author(s): Hiebert, Rick
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Ethelred
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quote:
Some scientists have already speculated that, because God exists outside mankind's space and time, time for Him moves at a different rate than for us. |
Thats not something a scientist would say. Its a theological remark.
Two academics? A physics STUDENT and a psychologist does not constitute two academics.
quote:
Montoya and MacKay have taken that concept a step further by creating a mathematical equation to show how the Biblical account of Creation and the fossil record could both be true using Einstein's theory of general relativity. |
Huh I know whats coming. They are going to truncate time and increase the rate of radioactive decay.
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The academics' equation has found five points where the Bible and the fossil record line up almost perfectly. Four of these points are days (in God's time) three, four, five and six of the Bible's account of creation. |
Which is wrong as I allready pointed out. The Bible does NOT match the fossil record even with time distortion.
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"If David is just using a metaphor, how did he happen to use the right number of years?" asks Prof. Montoya. |
He didn't.
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"We're talking about sheep herders. They couldn't have managed to put everything in the right order in their Creation accounts based on what they knew. It's like someone was leaving a little message for us to find once we discovered how time works in our universe." |
Well they didn't get it right so there is no sense in pretending this hard about the rest.
Well maybe I don't know where they are going since they didn't actually go anywhere. The made some false claims about the Bible having the right order and they changed the Bible's timescale. Nothing else. Maybe the two speculators had a lot more to say that didn't get into this rather sappy article.
Notice that all they did there was claim the Bible has the right order which it doesn't and go the thousand years as a day route which does not equal billions of years. Not one mention of Relativity except to invoke the phrase as if it had magical meaning on its own without need to explain.
This isn't new. Its a rehash of stuff I can show you on the net. I bet they were going to claim that the basic constants of time and radiation have changed. Without evidence of course. That gimmick doesn't work. It has the rate of radioactive decay so jacked up the Earth would be a molten ball of rock.
Jack you took physics. That could be construed as making you a physics student. It wouldn't make you an academic would it? You should have been able to see the article was nonsense from that alone.
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Jack_www
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I really dont even know were they based all there stuff on. I supected it was not very accurate, but I found it interesting and just wanted to see what you guys think. The way I found this article was that I was doing a sreach using the term "fossil record" and this was first on the list of articles I got back. I have found other info in more reputable sources and been looking at New Scientist, Scientific America, and others along this line.
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Lung
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of my princess Anastasia!
Mar 1999
time: 15:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethelred
This isn't new. Its a rehash of stuff I can show you on the net. I bet they were going to claim that the basic constants of time and radiation have changed. Without evidence of course. That gimmick doesn't work. It has the rate of radioactive decay so jacked up the Earth would be a molten ball of rock.
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Ethelred, you party pooper, you 
If you could, for example, create a big bang that didn't destroy your three dimensions, time could be altogether different. The universe you created may age millions of years per second of your time, but there may be no way of correlating time between the two universes, at least from the perspective of the createe. Alas, trying to match up our time with god's is grasping at straws.
Also, the model proposed by Jack assumes that the biblical timeline is correct. If you're going to meld emperical evidence with myth, you get nothing but compromised facts i.e. myth 
Jack, i suggest you try searching for the truth through evidence, rather than to find a theological angle on everything. Truth and salvation may be different things
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DarkCloud
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of Lists
Jul 2000
time: 05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by MacTBone
Well Kansas is north of Texas and west of Illinois... doesn't seem anywhere in the South... It is considered Midwest. |
Ah, possibly, but I would rather classify it as south. Oklahoma is definitely in the south. Kansas, yes there is a gray area.quote:
Why do countries do anything? For the good of their people. When we take out Afghanistan it's because we stand to gain from the situation. Africa as of now doesn't provide any incentive tfor America and there is no large constituency asking for us to intervene. That, and many times countries ask for assistance (Saudi Arabia). |
Yes, I udnerstand this. It makes economic and political sense. But since the US is attempting to give the world its image as the "world peacemaker" workign for the good of the world- they aren't doing very well when they don't have a cohesive foreign policy for everywhere.
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Americans aren't into groups that way. We don't depend on a paternalist leader to do our thinking for us. |
Ah, look at people's adherences to their parties.
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Americans are not as isolationist as you think. It varies from place to place of course. We would I suppose prefer to mind our own bussiness. Which sounds good to me but our bussiness is worldwide these days and has been for since the Civil War and much more so since WWII. The Pacific Coast economy is strongly connected with Asia the East Coast is more connected to Europe. |
About minding the business- what about Yugoslavia?
As for the rest of what you said- I agree.
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That is silly. We intervene when its in our interests and that is consistent enough. We intervened in Somalia. It did not go well. Continued intervention would not be in US interests in most countries there. Dead Americans is never in US interests. |
Ah, but it would likely have created greater world goodwill for the US.
quote:
If you can prove the stupidity of the U.S. as a whole grouping, I'd like to see it.
Also, if you can come up with some countries with consistently enlightened leaders... I'd like to see that too. |
Stupidity of the US as a whole- not intervening in WWII sooner. They could have quickly crushed the Axis. Although this was more a british and french problem of appeasement for hitler.
Stupidity of the US- electing clinton a second time after he lied. However, I don't blame them, Dole was no prize banana either. 
As for the second thing you said- I cannot prove that- I think all humans as a group are stupid.
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17-04-2002 08:52
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