26-02-2002 19:21									#31
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Sid, one of the rules is that you commit not to drop any game you join at all.
And at list 6 months of continuing PBEM playing are necessary

Zobo, I see that you have fully understand the purpose of the League

But 2 turns per week
I am talking for at list 4-5 turns per week

Applications so far:

Keygen
Gavrushka
Zobo?

Anyone else?

	26-02-2002 19:59									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Keygen I wouldn't like to start discriminating players here PC. I beleive that people here when they first read this thread will know if they want to join in and if they qualify of cource with some sort of serious thinking whether they are willing to commit or not which is what makes the decision on joining in more reliable. Even with 4-6 members I would personally be happy.

OK. If that's the way we're going.

quote: Regarding whether you qualify or not my personal opinion is yes. You play your turns in time, you have never resigned from a game as long as I know and you are playing for more than a year if you add the "preliminary" PBEM gaming in CGN. Not to mention that you are a moderator in CGN for long time and particulary in the CtP section when that existed But the decision is your and by signing here you commit.

Thanks for the write-up of my CtP "credentials" I must admit that I have on occasion let the 24 hour rule lapse. But generally not too often.
If I can take this as an okay from you, I'd love to join the league.

	27-02-2002 01:07									#33
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Count me in Keggy

	27-02-2002 06:20									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Count me in too. I'm looking forward to it

	27-02-2002 14:25									#35
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Yes Keygen, count me in !

	04-03-2002 17:03									#36
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A suggestion... how about we start the first Apolyton CTP league game??

It would be great if someone were to tell me how to create a game using Mods, and I will start one... I would also like to see Team play games start soon... Keygen, and news on that front??

	05-03-2002 16:39									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Gavrushka A suggestion... how about we start the first Apolyton CTP league game?? It would be great if someone were to tell me how to create a game using Mods, and I will start one... I would also like to see Team play games start soon... Keygen, and news on that front??

What about Alliance Garry? I was thinking of that few days ago that we could start it as the first league game perhaps with some changes.

I will create a small tutorial on how to start a game using or not mods and using the scenario editor as part of the Info Center.

Tribes? It might take a while. We need a Tournment which is time consuming to create a good one and some deticated players preferable.

	05-03-2002 16:47									#38
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Applicants

Keygen
Gavrushka
Phoenixcager
Faded Glory
jpww
ZoboZeWarrior


Once again, your application means that you commit and agree with the first page's rules & statements.
You still have time to turn back

	05-03-2002 19:46									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

HI while I understand the frustration of delayed games which is life in online gaming. I do not understand why you would want to start an "we are committed" league. Seems you could just start a game with that in the rules. The other thing I fail to see is why can't you drop games? I have shown with a little bit of planning a well programed email and the transfer of a games to other players can be seemless. It can also as Birdy has pointed out offer new life to a stagnent game.

I fail to see why one would want to remain in a game they have no chance to win or even close to winning.
I mean who wants to be the wipping post for the rest of the players. Land makes a huge difference in this game if you had even maps I could well understand your point. That is simply not the case at all, land is very much uneven in these games. While you stuggle with bad land another player has it easy with grass plains and mountains. They roll in with tanks and your pikemen stand ground? They see no advantage to taking you out your land is pathetic, your cities weak. It would simply just slow them down to take you out not good tactics. So there you remain for the rest of the game enjoying it?

As for tribes once Keygen post's info on how to make scenerios god knows I have asked him serveral times over the last year for help. I follow the read me and it simply does not work for some reason? I will be making even maps for tribe play and for regular play. This I believe would solve some of the problems of people dropping out of games.

	05-03-2002 20:11									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Blackice has a point.. BUT one that has already been addressed by one Supervisor.... Zobo.... all his maps have land equality and it really improves the game enormously... I think that when the tutorisl for mod use is up and running we could all have an equalised map ready and create games that way.... at the minute games are created by ... well TWO players, Keygen and Zobo, I think if the Apolyto league idea also said you have to give something back (we all have a map ready for a new game) it would make an impact.... When I started Alliance I took great pains to edit the land and goods so both teams of 4 had equality, which is the case.

I think we could make much of the Apolyton league idea if it is expanded, and includes all players taking a newbie under there wing (perma subbing, giving them help) we will assure the longivity of PBEM play....

Once the tutorial is up, I will spend time arranging a tribe game myself, and will use civleague.com as an address to promote tribe play and give everyone a user area.

	06-03-2002 05:18									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Exactly

	06-03-2002 19:41									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Gavrushka Blackice has a point.. BUT one that has already been addressed by one Supervisor.... Zobo.... all his maps have land equality and it really improves the game enormously...

Yes I try to do it. But it's a lot of extra work. And quite difficult to not advantage unwillingly a player too. The result is that no player will start in the middle of a swamp and the other in a grass land with mountain, forest and river.

	07-03-2002 04:24									#43
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sign me up. I think I qualify.

	07-03-2002 17:57									#44
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quote: Originally posted by blackice HI while I understand the frustration of delayed games which is life in online gaming. I do not understand why you would want to start an "we are committed" league.

Hi Ice

I explain the reason of the creation of a league on the first post.
People come and go in this forum, jump in a game usually causing the creation of a new game and then they disappear leaving newly created games on the air and replaced civilizations lucking of proper handling and continuing caring therefore falling back and practically nullifying that civilization and its value in the game. In the other hand some people stay. They stay because they like it. They stay because they can squize a couple of games in their daily schedule. And they usually play fast and most stay on the games till the end. They get frustrated from the delays and droppings. Why not then form a group with all these people since they all share the same arguments and complains?
If you don't get frustrated with the above then there is no reason to join the league

Don't get fooled by the title of the league (Apolyton CtP league).
It is not a formal thing and will not prevent in any way non-members from playing PBEM games.
I aim to few deticated players.

quote: Originally posted by blackice Seems you could just start a game with that in the rules.

Is there any PBEM game with no 24-hour rule? Then why all games significantly delay?
Because some people do not follow that rule. That means that predefined rules in game level do not apply after all, do they?
Did ever PBEM Rules fully applied?

In the contrary a league with clear rules formed by older players can keep with that.
I find no reason to be an older player and join the league if you don't really want to comply with these rules.
Something that simply does not happen with people joining the games.

quote: Originally posted by blackice The other thing I fail to see is why can't you drop games? I have shown with a little bit of planning a well programed email and the transfer of a games to other players can be seemless. It can also as Birdy has pointed out offer new life to a stagnent game.

But you can! You just have to have a serious reason to do so.
I remember an older player who used to jump into any new PBEM game started, played each one for 20-30 turns and then dropping off.
The result was civilizations in relatevely bad shape which was causing significant problems to the replacements and giving to the rest a precedence.
There are lot of occations of player who played for a while and then disappeared and caused minor or major problems to the games.

A civilization in a game changed hands 5 times which caused to be conquered by another civilization therefore making the rest of the game a strife against the specific civilization for the rest players.
In another one, team game a pair got replaced 2-3 times making that team the weakest of all and giving the chance to the remaining teams to claim victory with less pain.
In another one the weakest civilization is once again the one who changed the most hands.

Do not compare your excellent transition of power to Seige with those cases.
Until the transition was completed you played all your turns in time, your replacement was a cheerfull and reliable player, Canadian as you which means that on the games you started and the players were sorted according to their time zone the possible delays would be caused from a different time zone player than you have been avoided. Not to mention that some of the games was in early stage were your civ had not yet met most of the others and important agreements had not been made.

And yes, a replacement can offer a new life to a stagnant game but the replaced player wasn't partially the reason for stagnation?
But from my experience are very few those players who truly bring a new life when they join.

Besides I like to know who I beat and who beat me.
If a civilization changes hands all the time how the hell am I suposed to know who I beat and who beats me?

quote: Originally posted by blackice I fail to see why one would want to remain in a game they have no chance to win or even close to winning. I mean who wants to be the wipping post for the rest of the players.

Well, I mention on the rules that you can give up if the winner is perfectly obvious.
In the other hand if there is no obvious winner but the sure is that you are not going to be the one then it could be a serious reason to drop off. However if the game is near ending I see no reason to do so and should continue to the end. I personaly play in a game (Love Conquers) where my civ is hopeless. I joined in turn 80-90 and the civ was the worst. I took the challenge though. Rick and Mobius are leading the game with great distance in power chart from the third. I consider both among the best of Apolyton. However I beleive that with the proper diplomacy and tactic a weak civilization can take the win in the last momment. That is what I am trying to do and is a worthing aim if achived. It takes much more guts to accomplish such a task than winning a balanced game all the way to the end.

quote: Originally posted by blackice Land makes a huge difference in this game if you had even maps I could well understand your point. That is simply not the case at all, land is very much uneven in these games. While you stuggle with bad land another player has it easy with grass plains and mountains. They roll in with tanks and your pikemen stand ground? They see no advantage to taking you out your land is pathetic, your cities weak. It would simply just slow them down to take you out not good tactics. So there you remain for the rest of the game enjoying it?

Well, I generally find each player territory with no great differences with rare exeptions. Most of the games I play all the players has some sort of good and bad land.
Usually players that do start in bad land tend to expand faster than usual.
Therefore they end up finding a good land nearby after all.
It is rare to see maps with greatly unbalanced player territories.
This usually happens in smaller maps (small, regular) with many players participating.
Besides good players always find their way to keep up with the rest even with a mediocre land while bad player regardless land they fail.
If all the players are good then try to conduct good diplomacy. Form an alliance and attack to another to take a good share of his lands
This game has many consepts to be completely bounded by land. Simply PBEM games are not like Internet games in this field.

quote: Originally posted by blackice As for tribes once Keygen post's info on how to make scenerios god knows I have asked him serveral times over the last year for help. I follow the read me and it simply does not work for some reason? I will be making even maps for tribe play and for regular play. This I believe would solve some of the problems of people dropping out of games.

My appologies Ice
You are not the only one who have asked for help on creating a map in the past.
Many others have asked for but didn't get an answer.
The reason is simple. It is very time consuming to completely explain all tools, options, tips and tricks to a person.
When I receive 30-40 emails per day and usually half of then need a response I find it difficult to keep up with all of you.
Most get a response but some they don't. Especially questions that require a great amount of time to be answered.
I am working on it and I hope to be able to fully respond in all your questions in the near future.

quote: Originally posted by Swissy sign me up. I think I qualify.

I think you do too

	07-03-2002 18:18									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Keygen, I know you give more of your time than any of us to this game, and I feel that the Burden can be shared more evenly.... to do that would involve you starting a clinic to show other committed players how to create games, I think it would be a worthy investment- I would happily start a couple of games if I knew how... Yeh I can edit land, start locs settlers and gold and PW, but that does not give the complete picture, those accelerated starts you and Zobo use are superb, and with half a dozen people - Ice, me, Faded and others using them, you could particpate in games more, and still have more time on your hands...

	07-03-2002 18:40									#46
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I have a FAQ underway.

PBEM relative faq has been completed (a couple of months ago).
Internet, Creation & Community faqs are underway.

I will fire it soon along with other things as Info Center and then it's up to all of you to refine it and improve it.